New Guy Here

[Paul Finn]

After some explanations, I was able to dispose of a twenty minute reel of 35mm nitrate base film with the Michigan State Police section that handles bombs and other hazardous materials. It is like the military explosive ordinance disposal (EOD) units of operation. I did not want to just throw the film into a dumpster.

Paul Finn

[Jeffrey Pratt]

Tony
Thanks so much for the info about the film, it never would have occurred to me that the films could have been nitrate. I kinda just was thinking they were basically modern. But I did check all the film pieces in the various reels as per your recommendation and they all are labeled Safety film. Not really looked closely enough at them to have any determination of what the sybject is, but don't worry I wont be throwing them away.
Thanks Again

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

Nice group of vintage stuff.... too bad John E. passed away shortly before you came on board, he'd go crazy over all of this, and most likely had the parts you need to complete them. I haven't been able to get a hold of his daughter to find out what happened to his collection....

I do see something of some concern though:



Check that leftover film on the reel ...there is a (small) chance it could be nitrate, and there is enough of it there to be a big hazard. (On closer inspection, it looks like a small piece of VistVision footage..if it's safety film, DO NOT throw it away!)

Two ways of checking: Carefully unspool a foot or two and look at the edge marking to make sure it says "Safety Film" or DOES NOT SAY "NITRATE". (Some early safety film was unmarked, as was some nitrate. So if there are no markings, best to assume it is nitrate.)

The second (and more dangerous way) to check is to cut off a HALF FRAME sliver of the film, clamp it in a vice or other non flammable holder or tool. Take it outdoors, well away from other combustilbes or flammable liquids/vapors, and using a match on a very long stick, touch the flame to the film. If it melts with maybe a small flame of its own that goes out, it's safety film. If it disappears in a quick flash of flame, it's nitrate. In either event, you MUST be very careful to not breathe in any smoke it generates. Safety film is moderately toxic, nitrate film fumes are potentially lethal as it generates nitric oxide (when inhaled, turns to nitric acid) and other bad actors.

If it turns out to be nitrate, it must be disposed of. In the meantime you'll need to get a metal film can (not the shipping cans for prints) and seal that film up, using the foil tape used for HVAC ducts. Keep the can in a cool place until it is disposed of. Brad Miller or someone else on here will most likely know of how to dispose of it properly. (I did dispose of an old nitrate newsreel many years ago but I don't endorse how I did it, it was extremely dangerous and I got lucky.)

[Ryan Gallagher]

Making quick work of these!

[Jeffrey Pratt]

Thanks for the tip, Ryan, about the telescopes...I'll look in and see if they have suggestions IMG_3204.jpg

[Ryan Gallagher]

I bet the hobby DIY telescope communities would have resources and methods for reconditioning and re-coating reflectors, perhaps cheaper than more industrial outfits.

[Jeffrey Pratt]

Started to try clean these things up a bit, bases pretty much cleaned and moving as they should and started to work the lamp shells... IMG_3137 2.jpg

Pulled out one of the reflectors, still not sure if this cleanable and or polishable and wondering best way ..? IMG_3138.jpg

[Ryan Gallagher]

Oh and also both the two new projectors are missing their lenses so that another big issue I'll have to think about at some point...eeks

Cool photos. I'd not seen that rewinder before, and we have (had) some pretty old ones here. Looks like you have a quite a project on your hands. Goals aside, if the restoration work (cosmetic or otherwise) is something you enjoy, I say go for it. If having usable machines was the goal there might be better starting points than this out there... but as you said saving one (or two) is kinda the idea.

If you ever get sick of trying, you can always ship one off to Hand Tool Rescue youtube guy so we can all watch him fight with one! I'm honestly shocked he has not had one of this vintage or earlier dropped in his lap yet! ... but I guess they don't quite fit in the "tool" category... though he has delved into period "appliance" type tools before. I think a projector is a tool for showing films. ;-)

Your easiest route on the reflector if it is not in usable condition after cleaning is probably going to be to look for more compatible arc-house bodies for donor parts. I'm just guessing but imagine re-silvering a vintage reflector to be a budget buster, but of course don't know your budget constraints either. ;-)

[Jeffrey Pratt]

Oh and also both the two new projectors are missing their lenses so that another big issue I'll have to think about at some point...eeks

[Jeffrey Pratt]

more pics... IMG_3108.jpg IMG_3097.jpg IMG_3109.jpg IMG_3093.jpg IMG_3098.jpg IMG_3112.jpg

[Jeffrey Pratt]

Alright well...since your asking... I definitely could use some advice, and suggestions on this project and would really appreciate any input people might have. And I'm sure some here might think this kind of crazy or a bad idea or both. This kind of open ended, I'm not really setting any specific expectations since I don't know how far you can go before its unfeasible, but what I'm thinking is a kind of preservation / restoration with this stuff. With my first plan is to get everything cleaned and the projectors for lack of an appropriate terms "turning over".

I started a couple of years ago and bought the first simplex with WE sound head, I've kind of tinkered with it a little but without any of the other elements like the motor, flywheel, pedestal, lamp, etc. I never had much idea what I could do with it. Somewhere along its history someone had fashioned a rolling wooden base for it which is kind of charming but not very practical for use. I eventually found some magazines but that was it. Recently though I've purchased as a single lot off of eBay; 2 complete matching projector sets; Simplex projectors, with RCA MI 9001 sound heads, pedestals, magazines, and early Peerless "Reflector Arc Lamps" and a "Neumade" rewinder(with an interesting mercury switch , I believe, in the back, not pictured). But no rectifiers...They are in pretty, pretty ruff shape with surface rust but...as far as I could imagine their next stop was the scrap pile, so I thought what the hell..!! The idea of "preserving" 2 matching period equipped projectors seemed interesting, and since the first WE equipped is rust free and quite nice I'm thinking between the 3 something can be done. Purchasing two more projectors, and kind of working on them all together is what prompted me to find what remains for the first projector namely "the flywheel".

To start with I'm planning on cleaning, and loosening up the movement on the pedestals. Then taking off and fixing the rust on them , and then doing a little non-suppressive respraying where needed. Next, when I first planned on purchasing the Peerless lamps I had no intention of even considering restoring them to any kind of working order, maybe putting a high intensity bulb inside....but now after getting a chance to look over them closer, I'm considering it a little. And this is something I'm really hoping people on the forum may be able to advise me on... The mechanisms seem to be basically complete, the reflectors are not broken, the gap adjusting drive and motors seem complete. The thing that does seem to be missing from the lamps is a condensing lens? From the images and explanations I can find, namely "Richards Handbook of Projection" there may have been condensing lenses... neither lamp has them or even a trace of their mounts. But also from some other reading I'm wondering if they were always used inside the lamp house or sometimes not? Anyhow my plan is to fix the surface rust on the lamp house, loosen, remove, and clean the interior mechanisms. The next question is about re-silvering the reflector, is it feasible or any suggestions people might have? Its not gone really gone or peeled away (see pics)... I need to try cleaning them a little more first to figure out...Either way I'll clean and put into "moving" order and re-install the interior mechs. The idea of actually lighting the arcs (or not) or the rectifiers I'm thinking I'll save for a little down the road.

The idea for the projectors themselves is basically the same, I'm gonna clean them up and try to get everything moving properly. I'm betting that will involve mostly disassembling and reassembling them... both the two new projectors with the RCA sound heads have the motors and the flywheels. I'm thinking the motors should work when rewired. So with the projectors I'd like to get them running film, that's the main step I'd love to accomplish. If somehow that works, down the road, then I'll think about sound.

There is no ultimate plan for these projectors yet, I want to save them, take them one step at a time, and maybe put them on display in my studio, kind of a historic projection booth area. Maybe in the future use them for a more elaborate installation or actually get them running or donate them somewhere who might be interested. One interesting aspect of the machines, as a set coming from one booth I was surprised to find was the vintage "Projectionists Graffiti" on the inside rewinder and also inside of some of the magazines. I tried to some get good shots of it if you look closely in the pics. I think it's great and I'll definitely not be removing that stuff. Please I'm open to all suggestion so don't hesitate if anyones got ideas on some of my plans or suggestions.
Thank You
Jeff IMG_3096.jpg IMG_3102.jpg IMG_3092.jpg IMG_3115.jpg IMG_3116.jpg IMG_3103.jpg IMG_3113.jpg IMG_3090.jpg IMG_3091.jpg

[Ryan Gallagher]

Something I have always wanted to do with a lobby projector is get it set up with a variable speed gear motor so that a 2000' reel takes roughly an hour to go through. A RCA 9030 with its streamline motor cover would be ideal because you could hide the gear motor and controls under the cover. You could use some sort of LED flashlight to get enough cool light to be visible on a nearby wall. The movement would just look cool to most people and allow people that wanted to look closer to see how things actually worked. You could really go nuts and have a little display screen of some sort with the image of a arc if you had the lamp closed. Maybe one of those micro projectors projecting an arc image on the arcscope? Have a rewind setup also running slow and 2 reels of trailers so between rushes you re thread and re load the rewind so it was all ready to go for the next set?

That is my eventual hope for our Brenkert Supreme in the basement, minus the rewind... would probably put our vintage manual rewinds down there, but I suppose you could "motorize" them for display. Though I wasn't considering a slower intermittent speed, but rather a custom loop... but interesting idea. If you want to see the reels turning you gotta use a reel!! We even have the vintage RCA in-wall art-deco rack covers in storage still (original to our booth). Most of the gear they would have housed is gone though, handful of odd tube things still floating around.

The pico projector idea to shoot the arc image out is a clever touch. Could even go the whole 9 yards and put a tiny special effects fogger in it to billow "smoke" out of the stack.

LED car headlights are suitable, but design that works depends a bit on your reflector design, they might have to sit 90deg to a traditional carbon.

Done right, and if prominent enough, you could use a "reel end bell" (or an amplified one) as a replacement warning for patrons instead of flashing the lobby lights. Or maybe the bells are the 1 minute warning and the lights were the 5min warning. ;-) Falling arm bells would still work with a slowed down reel... Hatke ones would not so would have to fake em.

[Tj Hopland]

I remember that one, or a similar one. The one I was thinking of had a larger tapered shaft with a built in puller setup that was a little confusing if you had not seen anything like it before. This one being a straight shaft could be a good thing if you have to improvise something. The belts were also unique, they were a woven material I presume to decouple small variations from the motor so the flywheel could do its thing.

Do you have the motor and motor bracket? It looks like I can see the vertical slot that the motor bracket mounts to in one of the photos. Is the wood a shipping crate or is that your stand? If that is your stand and you are missing those parts I have to ask is there some reason you are trying to get this specific stuff working? Was this the actual stuff from the theater or town you are setting up this display from? If so then I guess it does make some sense. If not then it may take some time but you should be able to find something very similar that is more complete. Having a budget and the ability to travel and haul would speed up the process but I'm sure there is stuff still sitting in your area, you just have to find it hopefully in the hands of someone willing to let it go.

Fill us in on the big picture here so to speak. If we know what the overall goal is maybe we can make recommendations on how to proceed and or what other sorts of equipment you should or could be looking for. There are plenty of museums even some big ones with projector displays missing major components and or vastly different eras of equipment slapped together so its not like there is some high standard to meet especially when its the general public viewing the stuff. If you have more pictures of what you currently have to work with as well as the space its going to be set up in that could help too.

Something I have always wanted to do with a lobby projector is get it set up with a variable speed gear motor so that a 2000' reel takes roughly an hour to go through. A RCA 9030 with its streamline motor cover would be ideal because you could hide the gear motor and controls under the cover. You could use some sort of LED flashlight to get enough cool light to be visible on a nearby wall. The movement would just look cool to most people and allow people that wanted to look closer to see how things actually worked. You could really go nuts and have a little display screen of some sort with the image of a arc if you had the lamp closed. Maybe one of those micro projectors projecting an arc image on the arcscope? Have a rewind setup also running slow and 2 reels of trailers so between rushes you re thread and re load the rewind so it was all ready to go for the next set?

[Jeffrey Pratt]

TJ
Thanks for the info, some the of the details on this stuff is pretty hard to dig into and discover for someone new to this equipment like me. Here are some pictures of what I'm working with, and stuff I've found...First a good reference photo from Projecting Sound Picture 1931 of a 206A, a couple of photos I've found off the internet of what I believe might be 206A systems installed, and lastly some pictures of what I 've got and where I think the big flywheel is missing.

[Tj Hopland]

Got a picture of a 206? WE had quite a few models and even variations within the models. The model in the 3rd post is the one that doesn't have a sprocket in it and the flywheel doesn't look correct unless its just a variation. Most of those I saw were more of a dished shaped thing with some slots in it.

The soundhead in the original post looks like its probably an Ultraphone Jewell. The sound gate doesn't quite look right but there could have been different variations or that memory could have been displaced by ICP boards. Could also be a Webber which usually used the name Syncrofilm. I remember the Webber's having more of a drum shaped gate area. Another thing that points to Ultraphone is Jewell manufacturing was Minneapolis and Chicago so a really good chance of finding one in Iowa. Jewell like most others in the era ran into legal / patent issues with Western Electric so didn't last that long or get that big of a foothold in the industry.

There was still a fair amount of that dawn of sound on film gear running into the 1980's. One fairly common practice was to put new equipment in the indoor theater and move the old stuff to the drive in you just built. You had things like 3d and Cinemascope that could maybe benefit your indoor which was also a year round operation so owners were more likely to spend the money there than at the drive in which was seasonal in many areas. Many of the dealers across the country made parts and kits to keep them going, things like maybe a different pulley / flywheel to allow using a different motor and or belts. They would do things like modify the amps to use more 'modern' more readily available at the time tubes and then in later years install solar cells and solid state PA amplifiers. 80's was also when many of the smaller towns (and drive ins) closed and when the first gen xenon and automation stuff started hitting the used market so those two factors got rid of most of that real early stuff. I did know of a few places that did manage to keep that stuff going with carbons and tubes into the late 90's. I never saw those running but based on the condition of the equipment (now in the lobby) it had to have been a pretty terrible experience for the customers.