Are deeply curved LED screens the way to the future for cinema?

[Allan Young]

Are there any D-150 screens still in operation?

Here's a list of Dimension 150 theaters from ThomasHauerslev's site (although incomplete, as it doesn't mention the Coronet in SF): https://www.in70mm.com/newsletter/19...emas/index.htm

The two European installations (London and Copenhagen) are long gone.

[Van Dalton]

AS I recall, Todd had the same specification for Todd-AO that Cinerama had: the projectors had to be as close to center axis as possible, which is why there are many mid-century theaters that saw a shift to rear-of-the-mezzanine booths. Where it was NOT possible, you could obtain a so-called "rectified" print of the picture (like Oklahoma!) that in a half-assed way tried to correct for the keystoning on a curved screen, but that was considered sub-optimal.

Slightly OT, but I believe IMAX had such a kit as well to allow flat 15/70 prints to display correctly in dome theatres, a workaround for the eventual lack of "fisheye" prints available by the late 1990s. Subpar compared to running a print properly formatted for domes, but far preferrable to the alternative of running a flat print without it.

I seem to remember OMSI having that system around the mid 2000s when I was a broke college student slowly bankrupting myself spending weekends in that place. In the '90s they ran a pre-show slide presentation, without corrective optics, and the bowtie distortion was abominable!

Say what you goys will about IMAX dome/OMNIMAX, I always thought it was f'kn awesome.

[Jim Cassedy]

Here's a list of Dimension 150 theaters from ThomasHauerslev's site (although incomplete, as it doesn't
mention the Coronet in SF): https://www.in70mm.com/newsletter/19...emas/index.htm

As I've been in the projection biz since the early 1970's, my aging memory cells occasionally mix up booths
& equipment configurations from my past. I knew the CORONET in San Francisco definitely had been
equipped for TODD-AO, as there were still some assorted remnants of the installation on premisis right up
till the time UA closed the theater. I thought perhaps my comment about the Coronet being equipped for
D-150 might have been a victim of just an imagined recollection- but less than 5min of Google-ing turned
up an article (mentioning the Syosset) and an actual photo of the CORONET auditorium "after conversion
to D-150". You can see the photo & the quoted caption on the AmericanWidescreenMuseum website here:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingto14.htm

"The Coronet Theatre in San Francisco, CA. Showing the theatre after conversion
to D-150 presentation." (Photo & caption ©️ Martin Hart, www. widscreenmuseum.com )
CoronetCurvedScrn.jpg

[Allan Young]

As I've been in the projection biz since the early 1970's, my aging memory cells occasionally mix up booths
& equipment configurations from my past. I knew the CORONET in San Francisco definitely had been
equipped for TODD-AO, as there were still some assorted remnants of the installation on premisis right up
till the time UA closed the theater. I thought perhaps my comment about the Coronet being equipped for
D-150 might have been a victim of just an imagined recollection- but less than 5min of Google-ing turned
up an article (mentioning the Syosset) and an actual photo of the CORONET auditorium "after conversion
to D-150".

Yes, the list is definitely incomplete - the Coliseum in London had a D-150 screen and isn't listed. To be fair to the authors, it's from a 1995 newsletter so they wouldn't have been able to Google anything at the time!

[Marcel Birgelen]

Say what you goys will about IMAX dome/OMNIMAX, I always thought it was f'kn awesome.

For me, that system had way to many problems to be awesome, unfortunately.

First of all, it was often used for the wrong content, stuff that had tons of close-ups doesn't work well in IMAX generally, but is just troublesome in IMAX dome/OMNIMAX. But one of the most bothersome things for me has always been the aluminium screen that is clearly visible in bright scenes and bright spots. The visibility of those seams and the "fabric" of the screen really breaks the fourth wall for me.

Also, despite those extremely high-powered Xenon lamps used in the system, the brightness of the dome screen always somewhat underwhelmed me.

I have high hopes for the MSG Sphere, if it will eventually be built... a gigantic, direct-view dome screen would be more than awesome to experience.

[Lyle Romer]

I have high hopes for the MSG Sphere, if it will eventually be built... a gigantic, direct-view dome screen would be more than awesome to experience.

With the bolded do you mean the sphere itself or the screen inside? When I was in Vegas in March construction was well underway.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

The back end of River Oaks in Calumet City. IL was curved to conform with the space behind the screen. I wonder if that affected the sound? A curved wall generally tends to focus the sound, but I have no idea what the focal point would have been in relation to the auditorium. This theater also had an installation of DP-75's. Since by the time it was built, the DP-70 was out of production.

Photo from Cinema Treasures and was uploaded by Dallas Theaters

[Sam Chavez]

I'm not sure the Coronet ever was converted to D150. I worked around that place technically for years and actually stripped it when it closed. Are we sure we're not talking about the UA Alexandria up the street? That was more the UA flagship back in those days.

[Bobby Henderson]

With the bolded do you mean the sphere itself or the screen inside? When I was in Vegas in March construction was well underway.

The MSG Sphere structure is "topped off". The process to install more than 1 million LED panels and 164,000 speakers is supposed to start this summer and take nearly a year to complete. That goes along with all the other stuff being installed inside and outside. The LED system on the exterior of the sphere is also a very elaborate undertaking.

The cost of the MSG Sphere is currently at $1.9 billion, but the final cost could end up being substantially higher due to various supply chain issues and inflation.

I really would like to check out the MSG Sphere during a future visit to Las Vegas. But I'm hoping the ticket prices for various shows aren't priced out of sight -like going to see an NFL game in a billion dollar stadium. The MSG Sphere is a very expensive, almost one of a kind venue. A second MSG Sphere is proposed to be built in the Stratford area of London. Even if Madison Square Garden Entertainment is wildly successful with both the Las Vegas and London installations I wouldn't expect very many other MSG Sphere venues to be built. Only the biggest, most "cosmopolitan" metros would be viable as possible locations.

I'm sure MSG Entertainment could make some deals to have events like movie world premiere events or special movie screenings in the MSG Sphere. But this kind of venue is just too costly to have any chance at being deployed in any kind of mainstream manner for general purpose movie going. For now, people involved in developing large scale LED displays have to figure out how to make LED work economically for a normal movie theater.

[Marcel Birgelen]

With the bolded do you mean the sphere itself or the screen inside? When I was in Vegas in March construction was well underway.

Yes, it looks like they're still in process of building it, but in Vegas, that's no guarantee they'll ever finish it, just look at that enormous "Fontainebleau" contraption on the strip. The project has been postponed several times and as Bobby indicated, the outfitting has still to happen and supply problems and the wonky economy right now, may endanger the project.

Originally, there were plans to build an identical arena in London, but that's all just in the early planning stages, nothing has been built yet and the site where it should be built hasn't even been secured.

[Bobby Henderson]

Yes, it looks like they're still in process of building it, but in Vegas, that's no guarantee they'll ever finish it, just look at that enormous "Fontainebleau" contraption on the strip.

I'm not familiar with the "Fontainebleau" project you mentioned, but the MSG Sphere is going to get completed. They're way beyond past the point of no return with that venue. Problems related to the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic put the MSG Sphere project more than a year behind schedule. As of Summer 2022 the building's overall structure has fully taken shape. Now it's just a matter of getting all the LED tiles, seats, speakers and lots of other stuff installed.

There are examples of mega projects that failed to be completed. The Jeddah Tower in Saudi Arabia is one of the biggest examples; only one third of the 1000 meter tall tower has been built. Work stopped in 2018 and there is no sign when it could resume. But that project stalled for a variety of factors, some of which were out of the control of the project developers. A power shift in an autocratic religious theocracy was one of the biggest factors. The MSG Sphere is not exposed to those kinds of problems since it's located in the US. There is still plenty of risk involved in the project, but it's so far along now that any cost overruns will have to be absorbed. The developers have committed too much to the project to stop now.

Here's now the MSG Sphere looked in May of 2022 (Google Street View Image):

MSG-Sphere-May2022-GSV.jpg

For a size comparison, here's more images of the MSG Sphere site in Las Vegas compared to the T-Mobile Arena and Allegiant Stadium (home of the Las Vegas Raiders NFL team). The overhead shot of the MSG Sphere was from 2020, but the footprint of the venue is pretty much the same.

MSG-SizeComparison-1.jpg
MSG-SizeComparison-2.jpg
MSG-SizeComparison-3.jpg

[Jason Metcalfe]

Just wanted to point out that there is a good audio solution for non-perf screens and it’s from Meyer Sound: https://meyersound.com/product/ultra-reflex/

In my opinion we are still 3-5 years away from any wide deployment of LED in “standard” theaters due to cost and the current market, but one driver will undoubtably be the need for HDR outside of the DV projectors. If what i have seen is true LED costs are going to continue to decline at a significant rate over the next 5 years

[Steve Guttag]

It may be an audio solution, of sorts, but I'm more than skeptical about "good." I've NEVER heard a good sound system that located the speakers other than behind the screen. Note, JBL/Harman does have their de-elevation speakers that also attempt to reflect off the screen.

With speakers out in the auditorium like that, you also create a time-delay issue. You will need to account for the added distance into one's time calculations for good lip sync and alignment with the remaining speakers. Then there is the stereo image...good luck. In addition to the geometry issues of where the speakers will need to be located versus the screen, versus the audience. Again, good luck. One is now depending on the acoustic properties of the screen as an acoustical reflector for the final sound.

The realities are, nobody, in their right mind, would, if given another choice, would design a sound system where their first choice would be to locate the speakers above the audience and bounce them off of the screen. This is a stop-gap measure to make do with the currently available emissive screen(s). The better approach is to wait until the screen technology allows for the sound to be properly located. The new technology should not, in and of itself, degrade another part of the show.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I'm not familiar with the "Fontainebleau" project you mentioned, but the MSG Sphere is going to get completed. They're way beyond past the point of no return with that venue. Problems related to the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic put the MSG Sphere project more than a year behind schedule. As of Summer 2022 the building's overall structure has fully taken shape. Now it's just a matter of getting all the LED tiles, seats, speakers and lots of other stuff installed.=

The "Fontainebleau" or also known as "the Drew" is the big blue box at the right end of the strip, not far from the Stratosphere and almost right across the street from the new Resorts World complex, that was finished just this year, after years between owners and in constant limbo. The "Fontainebleau" was set to open back in 2006 and apparently was already fully furnnished, before the project fell through. Las Vegas has become notorious for billion dollar ruins.

The Las Vegas Sands Corporation was one of the major investors into the MSG Sphere project, they owned the Venetian hotel and accompanying Sands expo and this arena is being marketed as "the MSG Sphere at the Venetian". They recently sold their stake in both the Venetian Las Vegas and the Sands Expo to Vici Properties. Such developments can easily derail a project like the MSG Arena, but I'm happy to see them still working on it.

The realities are, nobody, in their right mind, would, if given another choice, would design a sound system where their first choice would be to locate the speakers above the audience and bounce them off of the screen. This is a stop-gap measure to make do with the currently available emissive screen(s). The better approach is to wait until the screen technology allows for the sound to be properly located. The new technology should not, in and of itself, degrade another part of the show.

The reality is that some Atmos systems for home use are using such means to implement the top speakers: They rely on the sound bouncing back from the ceiling... Yeah, I'm not a fan of the idea, but I've also never heard one in action, it would be interesting to hear how terrible it performs.

I've been in touch with a Chinese LED wall manufacturer who claims to be working on perforated LED screens, we're trying to get a test-panel over once they manage to achieve to get it to production. Still, pushing sound through a perforated, hard surface will be different than pushing it through a more traditional screen.

[Bobby Henderson]

The realities are, nobody, in their right mind, would, if given another choice, would design a sound system where their first choice would be to locate the speakers above the audience and bounce them off of the screen.

Not only that, but no one will get much of an audio "bounce" off a LED screen surface. It's not exactly a smooth thing. The pixels have their own louvers/visors. That creates many rows of something like a cheese grater surface.

Ultimately LED manufacturers will have to create a new breed of LED tiles and supporting hardware to make self-emitting screens work in cinemas. The actual tile needs to have some kind of pourous surface to allow audio to emit through it. The rest of the computing guts normally installed on the back of the board need to somehow be self contained in their own separate "box" and connected to the LED tile with a simple data cable. It's either that or the hardware needs to be greatly simplified and miniaturized if it's going to remain on the back of the tile.

On the bright side one could get away with using the current standards of technology to create outdoor cinemas that can operate during daylight hours. We're talking displays for drive-in theaters, party decks on cruise ships, large multi-purpose venues, etc.

The reality is that some Atmos systems for home use are using such means to implement the top speakers: They rely on the sound bouncing back from the ceiling... Yeah, I'm not a fan of the idea, but I've also never heard one in action, it would be interesting to hear how terrible it performs.

I can't imagine speakers that attempt to bounce audio off the ceiling will work anything like speakers installed in the ceiling. But at least in a near-field, home environment one wouldn't have to worry about the time-delay issues which affect large indoor venues.