Are you gonna get an electric car anytime soon? (Or do you already have one?)

[Martin Brooks]

In the U.S., many electric companies rebate if you charge off-peak. I get a 10 cent a kW/hr rebate if I charge between midnight and 8am, plus some bonuses.
If LFP is so less energy dense, then how are they pulling substantially more range out of them?

[Marcel Birgelen]

Around here, depending on the kind of contract you have, they can pay you up to something about 11 eurocent for every kW/hr you consume during peak production times. Additionally, if you have solar panels and you don't consume the energy yourself, you'll soon have to pay that same 11 eurocent for every kW/hr you deliver into the power grid... This has lead to quite some commotion and an absolute freeze on new solar panel installations. The only ones now installing solar panels are those that are sufficiently fortunate to be able to install a battery system alongside their solar panels.

As for LFP based batteries: The solution is rather simple, if you want to get more range out of them, you need an even bigger battery pack.
The good thing: Those batteries run less hot than Li-ion batteries, due to the reduced energy density, so you may need less cooling infrastructure.

But you can otherwise optimize in weight. Keep in mind that those range figures also are Geely's marketing numbers. But their 800V charging system is interesting, even though there are no charging stations around that will fully support it for a while, it promises even faster charging than current technology. The problem though, with all this technology in constant motion is that there is little room for standardization.

China has had their focus on producing cheap EVs for a while now and they have seriously ramped up production capacity, that's going to hurt the bottom-line of Tesla and other car makers in the EV business. Tesla seems to have cancelled their "cheap" Model 2 entirely, at least for now...

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Marcel, Our Govt saw the Chinese EV's as a threat to our own EV industry. As a result, they recently imposed taxes as high as 100% on some of the Chinese cars coming in to curtail US interest in them. But frankly, the US EV stuff is generally pretty pathetic anyway, and there are lots of new cars just sitting around in storage unsold.

[Leo Enticknap]

This has lead to quite some commotion and an absolute freeze on new solar panel installations. The only ones now installing solar panels are those that are sufficiently fortunate to be able to install a battery system alongside their solar panels.

That is precisely the cause and effect that has happened in California, too. What makes it even worse (if you genuinely believe in photovoltaic power as a means of saving the planet) is that if you modify an existing rooftop solar installation, e.g. by adding more panels or a battery system to it, you lose the pre-2022 net metering benefits that you will otherwise continue to have until 20 years after the initial installation. So if I or my wife decides to buy an EV, we can't add a few more panels to our existing rooftop solar array to help charge it without losing most of the tax/fee benefits that came with the original installation.

[Martin Brooks]

Marcel, Our Govt saw the Chinese EV's as a threat to our own EV industry. As a result, they recently imposed taxes as high as 100% on some of the Chinese cars coming in to curtail US interest in them. But frankly, the US EV stuff is generally pretty pathetic anyway, and there are lots of new cars just sitting around in storage unsold.

There's a 25% tariff on Chinese EV's, not "up to 100%" and of course they also wouldn't be entitled to any government incentives. But even with a 25% tariff, they still could be less expensive if they chose to export those cars here although they would probably have to raise prices to accommodate building a dealer network, service network and marketing. But the Chinese are doing some really interesting stuff.
There's a Chinese EV called the Zeekr007. Five trims ranging from $29,386 to $41,986 (assuming 1 ¥ = $0.1400). The four lower trims use a Lithium Iron (not Ion) Phosphate battery, which have lower environmental impact and they claim a 428 mile range and 311 miles with a 15 minute DC charge. The upper trim uses Qilin batteries from CATL and claims a 540 mile range.

The cars have a LIDAR sensor, 12 HD cameras and 5 millimeter-wave radars. And all the safety features that the best of other EVs have.

Except for the lowest trim, the cars are equipped with a 21 speaker Dolby Atmos sound system. I would love to get a listen to that because the one big complaint I have with my Hyundai EV is that the sound system is not good enough for the class of the car.

The Chinese spec sounds pretty impressive to me.

CATL has a new LFP battery for which they're claiming a 621 mile range. And Chinese EV Brand Hyper (GAC Aion) claims that in the 2026 model year they're going to be using solid state batteries that also get a claimed 621 mile range.

Some brands, especially American brands, do have EVs sitting on lots and Tesla sales are having issues, but that's to be expected as there's more competition. Hyundai's Ioniq line are breaking sales records every month and the cars, especially the upper trims, are actually pretty hard to get. Last summer, dealers were asking $thousands above sticker. They're still hard to get, but I don't think the dealers are trying to get above sticker these days and some of the lease deals are quite competitive with ICE cars.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Martin - Can't you upgrade the system in your Hyundai? If that was my vehicle, I'd be doing that rather than end up with a tacky Atmos system. I'm still driving my Hyundai... Have had it way longer than I thought I would, but it actually been extremely reliable, and it has a very acceptable sound system in it.

Personally, I have still yet to be impressed by any theatrical Atmos system, but there was finally a pretty good one in Park City, UT shortly before I moved to Nashville. There are none in Tennessee that I'd bother with, or pay extra for. Looking at it from my perspective, it's just another gimmick to sell movie tickets, and a lot of other audio gear. And most of the systems out there are bare bones systems just so they meet minimum requirements

As far as at home or in the car...Why? Now it's just another gimmick to sell cars. Another gimmick to sell home theater systems... What's next? Atmos sneakers, jeans? Seriously! I'm holding out for the Atmos blender that will mix all those channels properly once and for all and restore it back to the way it was intended to be heard...

Also, have you done any long distance, multi-state drives yet? Was just curious about how things are going at Charge stations, like are there more charge stations, are existing stations being expanded, and how crowded are they. Apparently Tesla has a Charge Station along I-80 out in no where land that is running off a big diesel generator that has a gigantic above ground fuel storage tank. I found that to be hilarious, but it also may have been the only cost effective way to do it. Hold on...! Why aren't there Atmos Car Charge Stations yet? Dolby is really missing out on those sites...

[Lyle Romer]

Martin - Can't you upgrade the system in your Hyundai? If that was my vehicle, I'd be doing that rather than end up with a tacky Atmos system. I'm still driving my Hyundai... Have had it way longer than I thought I would, but it actually been extremely reliable, and it has a very acceptable sound system in it.

Personally, I have still yet to be impressed by any theatrical Atmos system, but there was finally a pretty good one in Park City, UT shortly before I moved to Nashville. There are none in Tennessee that I'd bother with, or pay extra for. Looking at it from my perspective, it's just another gimmick to sell movie tickets, and a lot of other audio gear. And most of the systems out there are bare bones systems just so they meet minimum requirements

As far as at home or in the car...Why? Now it's just another gimmick to sell cars. Another gimmick to sell home theater systems... What's next? Atmos sneakers, jeans? Seriously! I'm holding out for the Atmos blender that will mix all those channels properly once and for all and restore it back to the way it was intended to be heard...

Also, have you done any long distance, multi-state drives yet? Was just curious about how things are going at Charge stations, like are there more charge stations, are existing stations being expanded, and how crowded are they. Apparently Tesla has a Charge Station along I-80 out in no where land that is running off a big diesel generator that has a gigantic above ground fuel storage tank. I found that to be hilarious, but it also may have been the only cost effective way to do it. Hold on...! Why aren't there Atmos Car Charge Stations yet? Dolby is really missing out on those sites...

I'm not really sure what Atmos does for you in a vehicle environment (or a home environment for that matter). I've been impressed with a few Dolby Atmos systems. The Paragon Delray Marketplace which was installed very early in the existence of Atmos (when the theatre was a Frank theatre), the Dolby Cinema @ AMC Disney Springs and Dolby Cinema @ AMC Pembroke Pines have all impressed me. All of them have a high density of surround speakers installed and have the surround channel subwoofers. Those three sound really good and have plenty of power.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

I've been to Delray before, have friends that live just inland from there, so next time I'm down that way I might check that out. I'd love to say that I was blown away by that sound system rather than eh... why did I bother.

[Lyle Romer]

I've been to Delray before, have friends that live just inland from there, so next time I'm down that way I might check that out. I'd love to say that I was blown away by that sound system rather than eh... why did I bother.

Hopefully Paragon has maintained it. Last time I was there it was still a Frank theatre. The theatre is inland just west of Florida's Turnpike.

[Martin Brooks]

Martin - Can't you upgrade the system in your Hyundai? If that was my vehicle, I'd be doing that rather than end up with a tacky Atmos system. I'm still driving my Hyundai... Have had it way longer than I thought I would, but it actually been extremely reliable, and it has a very acceptable sound system in it.

Personally, I have still yet to be impressed by any theatrical Atmos system, but there was finally a pretty good one in Park City, UT shortly before I moved to Nashville. There are none in Tennessee that I'd bother with, or pay extra for. Looking at it from my perspective, it's just another gimmick to sell movie tickets, and a lot of other audio gear. And most of the systems out there are bare bones systems just so they meet minimum requirements

As far as at home or in the car...Why? Now it's just another gimmick to sell cars. Another gimmick to sell home theater systems... What's next? Atmos sneakers, jeans? Seriously! I'm holding out for the Atmos blender that will mix all those channels properly once and for all and restore it back to the way it was intended to be heard...

Also, have you done any long distance, multi-state drives yet? Was just curious about how things are going at Charge stations, like are there more charge stations, are existing stations being expanded, and how crowded are they. Apparently Tesla has a Charge Station along I-80 out in no where land that is running off a big diesel generator that has a gigantic above ground fuel storage tank. I found that to be hilarious, but it also may have been the only cost effective way to do it. Hold on...! Why aren't there Atmos Car Charge Stations yet? Dolby is really missing out on those sites...

I'm thinking of upgrading the power amp if I can get a plug-and-play unit that absolutely will not draw any current when the car isn't running (since these cars have had some 12v battery issues - mine was just replaced under warranty), but I think it's the speakers that need to be changed and that's a royal pain in this car as it is in many cars these days, plus I think the door speakers need to be larger and that would be almost impossible to accomplish. It's not like the days when radios were DIN sized and it was only a few screws to get the dash off and speakers had easily removable grills and were held in by a few screws. The BOSE audio isn't terrible, but it's not as great as it should have been - it doesn't have those nice airy high frequencies and it doesn't have a strong tight bass. The other issue is that there's a front center speaker and I think they're using phase to take the mono portion of any signal to send it there. With much of today's music that has little stereo except for the echo return, there's frequently little coming out of the door speakers. And Sirius/XM tends to play a lot of mono versions of tracks that are also available in stereo. The system is highly dependent on source. The tracks on my phone, recorded AAC, tend to sound pretty good. Sirius/XM sounds less good (although far better than it did years ago when it was filled with artifacts and phase distortion) and radio, even HD radio, sounds less good than that.
It's not that I think I need Atmos in the car (or at home for that matter, where I have a 5.1 setup), but the fact that the Chinese maker went for Atmos makes me believe they cared enough about the sound system to make it high quality and I'd be curious to hear it if it is.

I think there are two problems with Atmos in theaters: I don't think the b-chain components are that great (in the Atmos theaters I've been to) in that they tend to be mid-rangey and metallic sounding - the characteristics that many people associate with "digital", but is really just poor component design/choices. And the mixes haven't really made use of Atmos' capabilities, probably because the sound mixers usually get everything late and still have to meet the original deadline, so in many cases, they're mixing 5.1 or 7.1 first and then sweetening with Atmos objects instead of mixing in Atmos first and then auto-generating the 5.1/7.1. But I was at an AES meeting a month ago at a recording studio where they mix Atmos and they played clips from the recent musical version of Mean Girls and in that environment, it sounded spectacular and I also saw Furiosa at a Dolby Cinema and I think that was the first Atmos mix I've ever heard that fully made use of Atmos and sounded good in spite of the b-chain. I've gone back to check how many Atmos films I've seen in total and I think it's about 30.

I haven't done multi-state trips in the car, but I do drive to upstate NY about once a month. I could probably make it there and back without recharging if I don't drive around while I'm up there, but it's too nerve-wracking, so I do generally stop to recharge once. Hyundais get free charging for two years at Electrify America charging stations and many Walmart parking lots have them. I stop at one that's a few minutes off of Interstate 84. If I stop during the day, there is frequently a wait, but at night, there's usually no wait. I think there's six chargers and one typically doesn't work. In warm weather, it takes about 20 minutes to charge from 20% to 80%. We're supposed to get access to Tesla Superchargers at some point, but with Musk killing most of the charging team, I don't know if that's really going to happen. (I live in an apartment, but my building installed 20 Level 2 chargers in the garage. I essentially have my own charger because the person next to me doesn't have an EV. So most of my charging is at home. There it takes about 8 hours to charge to 100% and if I do it overnight, there's a rebate from ConEd, but the rebate system is imperfect, so I don't always get what I'm supposed to, but so far, they have sent me $77 which is good for over 800 miles.)

It would take even less time if these chargers operated at "full speed", but they never do. It was once busy and I had to use the 150kW charger instead of the 350kW charger and was pissed, but it turned out it took 15 minutes to get 40.3kW whereas the day before, it took 14 minutes at a 350kW charger to get 35.2kW.

If I were planning a cross country trip, I think it would have to be planned carefully. The infrastructure simply isn't there yet, although I think it will be within a few years. There's a few Ioniq groups on Facebook and people there have very successfully traveled long distances and have claimed to have no problems charging even when they've limited themselves just to EA chargers in order for it to be free charging, but I think it's also very dependent upon where one is driving. I think rural areas are still very problematic.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Yea, I never did system upgrades myself in any of my cars or trucks. I had a guy working for me back in Chicago that was a car install genius. He re-did the system in my 95 Dodge Ram and it sounded awesome. He even made a subwoofer cabinet to fit the specific space available. No matter if it's gas or electric vehicle, it's a big PIA and best left to people or places that just to that sort of thing. There is a car stereo place a couple of miles from me that sells and installs some impressive stuff. But when one has to run battery size cabling to the power amp, it seems a little strange...

As far as car chargers, I kind of thought they still had a ways to go, and I know Home chargers will not even fully charge a vehicle if plugged in overnight. Last winter there was a big Tesla charger debacle in Skokie, IL where lots of people that work there had all the existing chargers in use at the nearby charge facility, leaving people to drive to the next charge station about 15 miles away. When a Tesla driver got to the second station, it was dead. Also clogged up with about 20 dead Teslas. Well, his car was also dead by then... at about 5%, and the lot of them had to be towed. When I get a new car in a year or so, or sooner if the tires fall off my present one, it will likely be a hybrid of some sort. Gas cars have to eventually become extinct, but I'd also like to wait and see what Toyota does with Hydrogen power. That seems to be a better way to go, and would also help keep the energy biz, that employs millions, in biz to some extent... Oh, one thing to note is that, at least in Tesla's, using the heater discharges the batteries 44% quicker than if you leave it off.

[Leo Enticknap]

Agreed. The combination of lithium ion batteries (very expensive and prone to spontaneous ignition if not kept ventilated, receive a crash impact, or are accidentally immersed in water, e.g. by driving through a flooded dip) and the lack of charging infrastructure continue to limit the number of drivers whose use case is compatible with the current state of the art of EVs. That is why sales of them have plummeted in the last 6-9 months: almost everyone who does fit the use case has now got one, and those who don't do not intend to anytime soon.

We actually would almost fit the use case for one of our two cars. My wife only drives around 4,000 miles a year and her car lives in our garage overnight. So she would have no problem with charging and range. But we aren't planning to get one anytime soon, because (a) her 2012 Civic, though old, has been scrupulously maintained per the service manual, is in excellent condition, and is still very reliable, and (b) we believe that it is fundamentally less safe to have a large li-ion battery pack sitting inside our house than 10 gallons of gas, especially as the temperature inside our garage is in the 90s throughout most of the summer. Being able to park in the garage is a red line for us, because auto crime in our neighborhood has now increased to a level that we do not want to leave our cars on the driveway or parked on the street. If, in 3-4 years' time, a new battery chemistry has replaced li-ion that significantly mitigates the fire risk, then we'll look at an electric when the time comes. But if it still costs 50% more than its ICE equivalent and the insurance is double, no point and no way.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

In the U.S., many electric companies rebate if you charge off-peak. I get a 10 cent a kW/hr rebate if I charge between midnight and 8am, plus some bonuses.
If LFP is so less energy dense, then how are they pulling substantially more range out of them?

Martin,

Commonwealth Edison in Northern Illinois used to charge less during off peak for everything. As a result, I had most theater customers starting their first show st 7 pm, and no earlier, because the power was like 20% less from 7 pm to 7 am. Saving that much on air conditioning costs back then was a big deal.

[Leo Enticknap]

If LFP is so less energy dense, then how are they pulling substantially more range out of them?

A combination of the fact that it's a lot lighter than li-ion (so even though capacity is limited by size, the weight to kWH ratio is better, meaning greater efficiency), plus evolutionary improvements in motors and drive trains, would be my guess.

[Scott Jentsch]

Agreed. The combination of lithium ion batteries (very expensive and prone to spontaneous ignition if not kept ventilated, receive a crash impact, or are accidentally immersed in water, e.g. by driving through a flooded dip) and the lack of charging infrastructure continue to limit the number of drivers whose use case is compatible with the current state of the art of EVs. That is why sales of them have plummeted in the last 6-9 months: almost everyone who does fit the use case has now got one, and those who don't do not intend to anytime soon.

We actually would almost fit the use case for one of our two cars. My wife only drives around 4,000 miles a year and her car lives in our garage overnight. So she would have no problem with charging and range. But we aren't planning to get one anytime soon, because (a) her 2012 Civic, though old, has been scrupulously maintained per the service manual, is in excellent condition, and is still very reliable, and (b) we believe that it is fundamentally less safe to have a large li-ion battery pack sitting inside our house than 10 gallons of gas, especially as the temperature inside our garage is in the 90s throughout most of the summer. Being able to park in the garage is a red line for us, because auto crime in our neighborhood has now increased to a level that we do not want to leave our cars on the driveway or parked on the street. If, in 3-4 years' time, a new battery chemistry has replaced li-ion that significantly mitigates the fire risk, then we'll look at an electric when the time comes. But if it still costs 50% more than its ICE equivalent and the insurance is double, no point and no way.

I think you might be overestimating the likelihood of catastrophic issues with EV batteries. In my understanding, the gasoline car fires still far outnumber EV car fires on a percentage basis. I've never heard of one "spontaneously" combusting due to heat or other issues (beyond the Chevy Bolt recall from several years ago). My guess is that you would run a much higher risk of 10 gallons of gas lighting up your house than a 100kWh EV battery. These things aren't the battery packs sold in overseas-made hoverboards. That said, LFP battery packs are even less likely to catch fire due to a malfunction, which is why most home battery manufacturers are now using LFP in those packs. LFP can also handle being charged to 100% regularly without the same issues that a NMC battery pack does.

EVs have very real tradeoffs with gas vehicles, but it's key to know which are real and which are non-issues.