Dishwasher - repair or replace?

[Marcel Birgelen]

I'm not a dishwasher expert, but I watched a bunch of these videos, now I feel like one.

Regarding the salt situation: apparently Europe does have, on average, harder water than the U.S. and apparently, in the U.S. people prefer cheaper devices...

The salt, at least over here, is indeed dirt cheap... 5kg for 5.99 for some no-name brand and EUR 10.00 for the fancy brand...

Edit: Fixed the video link

[Frank Cox]

We had moderately hard water here for years and I have a water softener.

But a few years ago the town got a shiny new water treatment plant and I've been told by my plumber (and a few other people) that there's no longer a need to have or use a water softener in town.

I still run it since I have it but it uses very little salt now so I don't think it's doing much, and I guess when it quits I won't bother to replace it.

The salt for it costs about $10 for a 40 pound bag and I use about two bags per year now. Before the advent of the new water treatment plant I was putting in about a bag a month.

[Marcel Birgelen]

There is a lot of marl in the ground here, so much in fact, that many historic buildings are built with it. So naturally, the water would be pretty hard and without countermeasures, equipment would suffer pretty badly. Ever since they switched to the "mixed water supply", like more than a decade ago, the salt inside the dishwasher lasts for ages. I also used countermeasures for the washing machine, but stopped using them ever since. I remember that I regularly had to replace the heating element inside the washing machine due to the aggressive buildup of limestone around it, despite the countermeasures I took

[Marco Giustini]

I'm curious to know how a water treatment plant can reduce the hardness of the water - not questioning what you say, honestly curious.

All the processes I'm aware of to reduce the hardness of water involve a chemical reaction which doesn't last forever. My home softener uses resins which will need to be rinsed every few days to regenerate. And the resulting water is rich of sodium (if memory serves) which is not great for you. The drinking water softener I have uses a different process but the cartridge only lasts 6 months. Then there is Osmosis. But you don't want to drink that water.

I'm curious to understand how a whole town can have soft water out of the tap without having soft water coming from the source.

[Marcel Birgelen]

The trick over here is simply by blending water from multiple sources, in order to reduce hardness of water. As a backup, some plants apparently have ion exchangers, much like you would have at home, but at industrial scale. Being able to source water from alternative sources also ensures availability if there is a problem with one of the primary sources. I guess this "water blending" isn't really an option in isolated communities with just a single local water source.

If you're proficient in Dutch, here is how it works around here.

[Marco Giustini]

I'm not proficient in Dutch so I'll trust you! The Ion exchanger process involves lots of water used to rinse the resins - plus it makes the water not great for drinking. How do you deal with that?
Blending water from difference sources makes sense to me.

[Frank Cox]

https://www.saskwater.com/municipal-melville-water-supply-system/

Municipal - Melville Water Supply System

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In 2016, when the City of Melville determined that it was time to replace their nearly 60-year-old water treatment plant (WTP), they came to the experts. SaskWater presented a proposal for a new system, including a new WTP, supply wells, and connecting pipeline. When the City accepted and signed the agreement, SaskWater purchased the existing WTP and took over operation of the system while the new facility was under development.
SaskWater’s plan covered more than a new WTP. The design for the new system also included the development of two wells, a well control building, and 30 kilometres of pipeline connecting the wells to the WTP site. The plan also included maintenance and upgrades on the system’s two existing wells and improvements to the wastewater system, all of which tie into the new supply system. The innovative project was partially funded by provincial and federal grant funding through the Clean Water and Wastewater Fund.
From agreement to operation, the development of the Melville Regional Potable Water Supply System took just under four years. The new WTP began operation on March 13, 2020, and a few months later on July 17, 2020, the old plant was demolished after being safely decommissioned. Everyone who worked on the project was very pleased with the collaborative process and the end result.
“We’ve got a beautiful facility with the ability to meet our long-term objectives,” explained Rynette Moore-Guillaume, SaskWater Director, Operations.
Walter Streelasky, Mayor of Melville, agreed. “Our city and our regional participants will now be provided with quality water for many years to come. We are grateful for the financial support provided by the federal and provincial governments. The combined efforts and support will serve to enhance Melville’s ability to grow and prosper well into the future.”
The new system represents significant improvements in efficiency, reliability and longevity, and it ensures impeccable quality of drinking water for approximately 6,000 residents of Melville and the surrounding area.
The overall treatment process has been streamlined with added automation. The old plant was fed by a mix of groundwater and surface water, which contains more minerals, and provides more process challenges. The new plant relies solely on groundwater and uses gravity filters and reverse osmosis membranes. As the reverse osmosis process strips the minerals, the final step of the process blends a measured amount of filtered treated water from earlier in the process with the reverse osmosis-treated water to reduce corrosiveness and provide more softness in the water.
“These are all top-notch, state of the art components and it’s been a real plus for our operators to work with that type of equipment,” said Moore-Guillaume.

[Marco Giustini]

interesting, they make pure H2O and then add filtered water (which has too many minerals) to make it the right spot.

I looked into RO at some point in the past but soon discovered that drinking RO water is not good for you. Some companies have cartridges which ADD the minerals back - but can I trust them? The idea of mixing spring water with RO might be a good idea for sure.

[Harold Hallikainen]

Some companies have cartridges which ADD the minerals back

That's what we have under our kitchen sink. An RO system along with a final "remineralizer filter."

By the way, our dishwasher is acting up again. When we bought our house 5 years ago, we found the dishwasher did not work. The former owner told us you just have to leave it unplugged for a while, then plug it in, and it works. I added an outlet strip under the sink so power was removed whenever we were not using it. After a while, even that would not make it work. We got a service tech out who, of course, replaced the control board. The repair lasted about a year, then the same symptom returned. Today, the display does not light up when power is reapplied. I wish there were vacuum tubes I could take to the drug store to test. Meanwhile, if we end up having to buy another dishwasher, it will NOT be a GE.

EDIT: The dishwasher just started. It lives another day!

[Marco Giustini]

quite a few years ago my dishwasher stopped working. It was dead.

I can't remember why but I decided to try flipping the plug into the socket (it was one of those Shuko plugs with "side" earthing so you can plug them either ways round) and like magic... it worked. And kept working until I sold the place 14 years later ?

[Marcel Birgelen]

I'm not proficient in Dutch so I'll trust you! The Ion exchanger process involves lots of water used to rinse the resins - plus it makes the water not great for drinking. How do you deal with that?
Blending water from difference sources makes sense to me.

I know a few people that work there, maybe I'll ask them what exact process they're using, because that's not explained in the video. I can explain to you the other side of the process though: the sewage processing part, because I've actually done quite some work for that part. What they do explain in the video though is that they process water from multiple sources in such a plant.

From what I conclude, they actively remove limestone from the water, so it's not just neutralization or a temporary neutralization, it's a real removal process. This limestone is then used for industrial purposes and actually to make water harder in places where it is too soft. Water quality around here is really pretty good, I haven't bought any bottled water in years...

Water apparently means serious business... I can even lookup what the water hardness is in my street, which is currently 7.74 ºdH and a water pressure of 3.6 bar, which is apparently "soft to average" and "right where it needs to be".

I've lived in quite a few places where water was potable according to common standards but had quite a chlorine taste. The best tasting drinking water though I remember, was back in Switzerland. You could've just bottled that water up right out of the faucet and made a killing with it.

[Marco Giustini]

Iceland.

You have the best drinking water from the tap of your hotel room

[Marcel Birgelen]

I've been to Iceland, but other than brushing my teeth, I've not really taken the time to enjoy the tap water there I must admit... But I guess mountainous countries probably have water with lots of minerals in them and there is an entire market out there for mineral water.