Another Walkin Music Q (Dealing with heavy curtain)

[Ryan Gallagher]

What would you do to try to improve walkin music sound when a heavy theatrical main rag is deployed in front of L,R,C?

For us, often walkin is often kinda part of the evening's entertainment, a heavily curated film specific playlist, played slightly above background levels (either curated by myself or our marketing team). If it was just background I probably wouldn't be trying to improve it.

I believe I understand our AP20 can route a stereo non-sync signal to JUST the Lss and Rss channels. Or would you advise just trying to "augment" by routing L+R to the surrounds as well and playing with format levels.

I had previously improved our situation with advice here to use NEO6 decoding via HDMI audio which helps when the curtain is not in use. But doesn't quite solve anything when it is.

I don't have time or tools to make a new EQ for a curtain closed situation, but that would obviously be ideal eventually. It's just walkin music of course.

They sprung a bunch of curtain graphics on me i'll be throwing on the curtain for the final week of our season, so curtain is definitely closed for a bunch of these walkins. Only a couple shows have the rest of my crew coming in with the option to use the live PA for walkin.

During my tenure curtain use pre-show has been pretty rare, just the roadshow films or situations like this. Before my time we had a different curtain that was a little more forgiving on the cinema channels behind it (single layer, not double).

[Marcel Birgelen]

I've done some audio upmixing on background music via a DTS Neural plugin in ProTools. It added some extra dimensions to it, but I'm not sure if anybody really noticed it. In my opinion, the impact on standard stereo music with Neo:6 is quite limited. If it does something, it's primarily making use of the center speaker.

Something that sounds quite impressive for live music is this, but I guess that's a bit too expensive for walkin music.

[Steve Guttag]

I normally just play through the curtain...and never really worry about it. It is just background music.

[Ryan Gallagher]

I've done some audio upmixing on background music via a DTS Neural plugin in ProTools. It added some extra dimensions to it, but I'm not sure if anybody really noticed it. In my opinion, the impact on standard stereo music with Neo:6 is quite limited. If it does something, it's primarily making use of the center speaker.

Something that sounds quite impressive for live music is this, but I guess that's a bit too expensive for walkin music.

For sure the Neo6 changes were subtle... primarily like you said, C becomes active, but it deploys the subs much more as well. Surrounds are noticeably doing something on most tracks. But what it does in the surrounds feels a bit disconnected from the rest when the curtain is muffling the mains. Hence my thoughts to ditch Neo6 and just duplicate L+R slightly for curtain shows.

We certainly aren't throwing any hardware at this "problem". lol. Just wondering if AP20 offered anything I could tweak as is.

[Harold Hallikainen]

This reminds me of the discussion in the committee that wrote the recommended practice for auditorium equalization. They recommend that the tech be in the auditorium instead of the booth. One person described having difficulty getting the eq right and later discovered the curtains were closed. Another discovered the cleaning crew was in the auditorium during the eq.

I've written before about a problem we saw in a theater with an LSS-200. Every now and then, the high frequencies on the left and right channels would drop a few dB while the center channel stayed unchanged. It turned out the theater was playing a flat movie that week. Moving the masking in covered the left and right speakers attenuating the highs.

[Ryan Gallagher]

This reminds me of the discussion in the committee that wrote the recommended practice for auditorium equalization. They recommend that the tech be in the auditorium instead of the booth. One person described having difficulty getting the eq right and later discovered the curtains were closed. Another discovered the cleaning crew was in the auditorium during the eq.

I've written before about a problem we saw in a theater with an LSS-200. Every now and then, the high frequencies on the left and right channels would drop a few dB while the center channel stayed unchanged. It turned out the theater was playing a flat movie that week. Moving the masking in covered the left and right speakers attenuating the highs.

Our 133 side masking position definitely suffers a little in partially covering L+R too... though mostly when we are in that format we are mono. Everything wider than 1.66 is fine thankfully.

I've seen historic photos where they used to also add a second "frame" to the 1.33 image with the decorated fire curtain and red main drape travellers inboard of their fully open position, in addition to the screen masking. Our screen is bigger now and we don't show enough 1.33. In the film only days a fly person used to be called to do all the onstage masking changes, which would make nice touches like that much easier. Usually I have enough on my plate managing side masking changes on stage during doubles or quick house flips, let alone running up to the fly rail for that added stuff.

[Randy Stankey]

It turned out the theater was playing a flat movie that week. Moving the masking in covered the left and right speakers attenuating the highs.

Have your masking curtains made from shark-tooth scrim cloth. Put a six inch strip of black Duvetyne along the inside edges. When the lights go down the scrim will be dark enough to make the unused part of the screen disappear. The strip of Duve on the inside edge will make a nice edge to mask the image. When the house is dark and the movie is playing, nobody will ever know that the screen masking is partially transparent.

I suppose, if you want, you could use a double layer of scrim cloth. I'm sure that it would still be acoustically transparent.

[Marco Giustini]

if you really want to improve, you don't need a new "EQ" for background music. Just sit in the auditorium, listen to music then close the curtain and increase the HF or L and R a few dB's until you get the desired result.

Bear in mind that the AP20 is - like all professional devices - a zero headroom device. That is, any positive EQ will clip the signal if it reached 0dBFS. For non sync it should be fine as the level is going to be low. But for cinema stuff, you shouldn't use positive EQ - Dirac is only cutting if memory serves.
All Dolby devices have 30dB headroom by design so you can jump on those controls and you'll never clip - but the SNR is compromised of course.

[Carsten Kurz]

If you're asking for something that can be done in the AP20 - where's the problem to create another EQ curve? That's where the AP20/AP25 shines.

I do find Neo:6 quite impressing in the overall soundfield it creates. It may not be 'expressive' or too articulated as far as surrounds go, but that wouldn't be what I'm after with such a function anyway. It should just create a slightly more immersive ambience.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Thanks all. That is basically my intent, if I can manage to come in early enough to make the time. Just duplicate my current preset for walkin, go sit in the house with the curtain closed and see what I can get with just level adjustments, and if not happy with that either copy our current EQ to permit adjusting frequencies, or try the L+R in the sides routed version without Neo6.

[Marcel Birgelen]

If you're asking for something that can be done in the AP20 - where's the problem to create another EQ curve? That's where the AP20/AP25 shines.

I do find Neo:6 quite impressing in the overall soundfield it creates. It may not be 'expressive' or too articulated as far as surrounds go, but that wouldn't be what I'm after with such a function anyway. It should just create a slightly more immersive ambience.

Are you using the Cinema or Music mode? I've only ever used the Music mode for background music. If I remember correctly, it leaves the L+R channels completely intact in that mode. I guess the music mode isn't as keen on throwing stuff in the surround channels as the Cinema mode.

[Randy Stankey]

I guess the music mode isn't as keen on throwing stuff in the surround channels as the Cinema mode.

I wouldn't want intermission music playing from the surround speakers. If it does, the customers don't get the "shock and awe" effect when the movie starts and sound starts coming from the speakers on the walls.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Are you using the Cinema or Music mode? I've only ever used the Music mode for background music. If I remember correctly, it leaves the L+R channels completely intact in that mode. I guess the music mode isn't as keen on throwing stuff in the surround channels as the Cinema mode.

For my Neo6 walkin preset, it is Music mode... otherwise it is just a copy of our previous blu-ray preset with a different HDMI target (but inheriting our last 5.1 room EQ that Dolby did).

[Carsten Kurz]

Alright, you are after a quick next-day solution, I thought this was a general request.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Alright, you are after a quick next-day solution, I thought this was a general request.

I have a couple days, gonna play with options Tuesday, don't have a curtain walkin show until friday, but 3 days in row at that point.