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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Which is the best/worst projector? (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Author Topic: Which is the best/worst projector?
Nicholas McRobert
Film Handler

Posts: 38
From: Belfast, N. Ireland
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 11-30-1999 07:11 PM      Profile for Nicholas McRobert   Email Nicholas McRobert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad - sorry to keep going on and on about the Kinoton stuff, but have you ever tried out the Kinoton ST range of "non-rewind" platter systems? I've used Christies before, but the Kinotons are sooooo simple and work so well (without any tweaking at all, I might add...) but again, they are pretty damn expensive! Like the projectors, there are quite a few of these from 25 years ago still in everyday (trouble-free) use at some locations.

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Stephen Winner
Film Handler

Posts: 57
From: Richmond,VA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-30-1999 08:17 PM      Profile for Stephen Winner   Author's Homepage   Email Stephen Winner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have always been quite partial to my ol Simplex XL's here because they have never given me a hint of trouble. I have never stopped a show, or seen other projectionist here stop a show for a projector problem! (aside from all the dirt I got on "Eyes wide Shut" that collected in my sound head, and fouled up the sound!)

The only thing that annoys me is those little thumbscrews on the gate seem to like to jump off, roll a couple miles around the booth, then get lost under a piece of equipment. One time I had one drop through the hole in the floor where the DC leads come up from the rectifier! (see the closeup in the Byrd pictures in the gallery!)

I have started to get up a collection of 16 gear at home, and I can say the worst 16 portable ever built has to be the Singer 1100 slot loads. I have had pretty good luck with my 1552, and my 2592 running some pretty trashed films without missing a frame at all. The only annoying thing about B&H autoloads is that the autoloader does not like to release if the projector hasn't been used for a while. It supposed to release when the take up reel puts tension on the film, but sometimes sticks, and has to be released by hand. I have an EiKi 6100 up in the booth, and have used it a few times for shows, and viewing my own personal collection It takes a little while to load, but that's the drawback to a manual loader. The advantage is that this machine is pretty gentle on the film. I have a hard time telling it from the 35mm when a good print is loaded up! The only problem is that this machine doesn't look like it would be up to daily service, the mechanicals just don't look beefy enough!

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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 11-30-1999 08:28 PM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wouldn't removing the lamphouse blower in the Christies cause problems with airflow and bulb cooling?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-30-1999 08:40 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
In response to the Christie exhaust blower in the lamphouse, this all depends on your roof fan. In other words, if you remove an exhaust fan, is the blower on the roof pulling enough to feel at the bottom of the exhaust stack in the lamphouse? If so, REMOVE THEM. Your pictures will sharpen right up as there will be no more "bounce" from these blowers...cause they will shake the entire console! (It would be nice if Christie made sturdier feet on their consoles. )

By the way, before anyone tries removing a blower, you should NOT remove the one that sits on top of the negative end of the lamp blowing down. I'm speaking of the one mounted at the front, top that blows air upward into the stack. The lamp blower can be cushioned to prevent shaking as is explained in "Christie P35GP tips" on the front page of this site.

Granted, brand new and in perfect condition, these blowers don't cause problems...but once they collect a bit of dust and get just a hair off balance, the shaking will begin. Also, these blowers are an "accessory" and are not shipped with all Christie consoles, so perhaps David is not receiving these blowers in the first place.

I've never personally ran anything Kinotone, but I do hear they make excellent equipment. I'd be interested in their platters and their projectors, although I can't imagine their platters being better than Christie's AW3 or Century projectors.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-30-1999 09:33 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If there is a problem with the blowers in the Christie consoles, then no blame can be pointed towards the projector. Any projector on a Christie console should shake after awhile, right? If this is still an issue, I have yet to come across it. Maybe Christie has fixed the problem in the latest batch of lamphouses. Remember, this lamphouse can't be beat!

I have one Christie P35GPS projector that I spent an entire night cleaning out all of the gears, pulleys, and just about everything else, including each individual notch in each gear. I installed new belts (always replace all of the belts at the same time) and put a little Panef belt dressing on them. To this day the projector runs extremely smooth and the Dolby Digital error rate is down to the low teens! (Actually reads about 3 to 4, which is perfectly fine). Picture is remarkable when the labs print them correctly. Belts have not begun to shed yet (it's been about 3 months or so).

Now I have 15 more to do like this! AAAhhhhh! I just don't have the time. I would if I didn't have to run movies as well. Running movies always gets in the way for me.

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Michael Cunningham
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 186
From: Anchorage, AK
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 11-30-1999 10:16 PM      Profile for Michael Cunningham   Email Michael Cunningham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Let's see, best/worst projector huh? Of the machines I have worked with I would have to go with the Norelco (Todd AO) as far as steadiness and film handling capability. Of course, its large size and difficulty of acquiring parts lowers its quality some. Second would be the Century projectors (both 35 and 35/70). Good stable image and low worry factor, as long as you remember to grease and oil all the proper points! Next would be the Ballantyne Pro 35's. They're a good projector for a beginner to learn on and can produce a decent image if tweaked with enough. Lastly would be the current crop of machines I'm dealing with, Simplex. While easy to thread and maintain, to a degree, they have real trouble producing a steady image. There's a lot of bob and weave in those gates!!

-Mike

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David Johnson
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Melbourne Vict Australia
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 12-01-1999 03:17 AM      Profile for David Johnson   Email David Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have never experienced problems with the Christie blowers, and to this date I have never experienced any vibration problems at all with Christie, are you sure it is not a 96HZ flutter that you have? this is quite a problem with 2383 stock. I am currently installing 8 Christie consol's and projectors so lets hope I don't have any. As for Kinoton, I look after around 150 FP20/30 and DP75s, and agree that they must be one of the best projectors around. But when it comes to Vibration the old FP20 can be a real problem on some (but not all), numerous calls and correspondence with Kinoton has failed to resolve the problems. Last week I fitted a brace from the movment to the frame on the worst one we have and it looks like it has cured it. Kinoton have braced the movment on the FP30 and taken other measures to correct the problem. Now they have a direct drive and this seems to solve all the problems. As for the Kinoton platter (the older style) with out any doubt the best platter I have worked on far Better than the "Christie" they have two minor problems, the delay relay (timer) will short on the odd ocasion and cause a wrap around, this is easily cured by replacing it with a "National" plug in type, and the small capacitor that conrols the direction of the control motor can on the odd occasion go, this can also cause a wrap around and can lead to a failed gear box because if the motor goes in the wrong direction the limits will have no effect and the Variac will go all the way around and jam up causing the gear box to strip.
David

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 12-01-1999 03:32 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds like I'm safer (to the projector) if I stay with the AW3!!!

Anyway, no it's not the 2383 flutter. I know exactly what you're talking about, but I only experience that if I run a print without FilmGuard. One pass through FilmGuard and that flutter's a thing of the past. I'm talking about actual vibration from the lamphouse. It is easily felt on the projector and turret. Generally it has a pulsing to it that is unmistakable. Be happy it hasn't happened to you yet. Hopefully Christie will find a fix to that problem, as it is the only real flaw in the SLC console.

What company do you work for?

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Nicholas McRobert
Film Handler

Posts: 38
From: Belfast, N. Ireland
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 12-01-1999 04:42 PM      Profile for Nicholas McRobert   Email Nicholas McRobert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad...

Trust me on this one.....if you ever get the chance, try a Kinoton platter! The guys at the Christie-equipped theater in the next town are jealous as hell

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 12-01-1999 05:38 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I need to test a Kinotone platter for my product reviews for the site. Perhaps somebody from Kinotone would like to send me one (for free)?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 12-01-1999 08:46 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I too will be happy to install one in the Film-Tech screening room if Kinotone sends out sample platters.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-02-1999 07:05 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is no question, the Norelco AAII deserves a place in the projector hall of fame. It was exceptionally well thought out (especially for its time).

I can generally get both the 35 and 70mm pictures as steady or steadier than any other projector. The 35mm optical head is also one of the best designs. The mag head is only of its only weak points...both stabilizers are the same size and will cause some flutter. Also making the mag head a 10-track presumes the 6-track and 4-track sections will wear out at the same time...I don't know anyone that has had these since the 4-track days that doesn't have spent 6-track sections with good 4-track sections. Oh and despite claims to the contrary, the AA2 is supported by Kinoton and wearables are available...the difference is that you almost NEVER need any parts for it except tension bands and sprockets.

The current generation Kinoton 16, 35 and 70mm projectors and allied equipment will pretty much embarass other projectors in the quality of picture department (and basement readers too...generally they get penthouse performance)

The Century projector is a cement mixer, they always run but hardly the best of design. Mechanically they are flawed in that the vertical shaft must be precisely aligned at 3 points and Century never had the machining to pull it off. Fortunately, the gearing is crude so the slop isn't so bad (again it is a cement mixer). The weak points on the machine (gear side)the main drive, intermittent drive and shutter drive. The driving gears have a bad gear ratio to their driven gears. (Ever notice that the sprocket gears almost never go bad?)The grease application system is also kinda wanting since it depends on regular attention and inherently wants to sling the grease off. Having the main drive gear hidden doesn't help things much.

Are they easy to fix? Sure! A screw driver and a adjustable wrench can do a whole bunch on the machine. The problem is, you often have to. Sure there are a lot of 40-50 year Centurys still out there doing the job day in and day out but none of those oldies are still running on their original gears (save maybe their sprocket gears)

On the film side things are much better. They generally never really got their projector head to line up very well with their soundheads (mag or optical)though. The trap is a heat sucker with no heat shielding. The lens alignment is also rather crude and on the single lens units the option is to have the lens receiver rock or not be able to focus due to its upper lens guide. On the plus side, being able to rock the lens allows for perfect centering when going between formats if the projectors are off center to the screen.

Overall though, the Century does put out a good picture that can be decently steady. It's shutter design (bow-tie) isn't as light efficient as others. To counter this Century has the double-dissolving shutter option that will get you a measurable (and viewable improvement) though it induces a hot-spot and is one more thing to wear out. When double-shutter GR-207 gears start to wear, the light will look like it is flickering though is it the bounce of the two shutters in relation to each other.

I have found the JJ's 35mm gate design to put out steadier pictures than the SA's gate design.

Simplex (XL/35) is, in my opinion, the best of the American projectors. The mechanical design is excellent thoughout. Like Century, there are XLs from the 1949 (first year of production, I believe) still going but unlike Century, a well oiled one is often running on its original gears (or at least the bulk of them are original). The larger sprockets are gentle on the film. The laterial guide roller is a bit flawed in that the heat treating process often induces a warp that can show up as a VERY slow weave on screen as it rotates about. Having to bend the gate tang about to get good intermittent shoe alignment is a bit crude too. Stong has "fixed" that now ny having the intermittent shoe now adjustable.

Like the projector, the Simplex 4-star soundhead can generally be made to run for ever (the gear box one) though there is often debates on the best oil to be used in it (hint, thicker than SAE 30). The loose loop design is better than Century's tight loop design but Simplex blew it when they put a contact part smack dab in the middle of the picture area and on the emulsion side! The current "5-Star" soundhead suffers from the same affliction and has the trendy belt drive problems that other soundheads have.

Take a 4-star soundhead and switch the pinch roller and impedance drum over to the AA2 style and you would have a great soundhead that would last forever.

Both Century and Simplex having projector heads that are still in production since the late 40s/early 50s that are essentually unchanged says alot about them and that cleary a lot of people like both.

Steve

------------------
"Old Projectionists never die, they just changeover!"



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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-03-1999 11:00 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I service many Fp20 and DP75's here amd Canada and the only ones that had to have the movements braced were the ones that were assembled with colums made by Ballantyne. For many years Ballantyne assembeld the machines making the main frame colum in the US It was not as heavy of construction and sometimes would twist. In all cases I renforced the colume inside with unistruct and all problems went away
We also have many of the Kinotone (also KTV) platters and are probably the finest built

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Mike Bianchi
Film Handler

Posts: 40
From: Independence, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-03-1999 04:38 PM      Profile for Mike Bianchi   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Bianchi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd have to echo the sentiments for the Simplex XL, it's definatley my favorite projector. The Century SA comes in a close second, especially for their ease of cleaning/open design. The Brenkert BX80 is also a fine head, for an older model.

I have to give the worst I've worked with to the Simplex E-7 - although it has it's redeeming qualities - particularly it's durability.

We're running two 1936 E-7's and they're still going strong. They don't have the most stable picture, and use a LOT of oil, but they still work every show!

Long live the XL, though, especially when equipped with the slotted shutter fan to allow more light for 3D.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-03-1999 08:00 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Funny most E7 have rock steady pictures
the do leak oil as they are a one shot oil system and that oblique shaft is a nightmare to work on

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