Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Cinema Paradiso (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: Cinema Paradiso
Antonio Marcheselli
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1260
From: Florence, Italy
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-06-2002 02:45 AM      Profile for Antonio Marcheselli   Author's Homepage   Email Antonio Marcheselli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

Intermissions in Italy is very usual, all prints come with a "intermission" leader printed directly (not spliced) at the end of reel 3 or 4 (depending of the lenght of the movie).
The intermission is done or not depending of the owner, but I saw that usually customers like it. At my theater we do not have intermission because... we don't have an internal bar!!

In Italy two automatic projectors are very usual (while one is projecting the other is rewinding) so we don't need the intermission if we don't want to do it.
I have set automatic changeover without projecting the "intermission" leader.

Bye
Antonio

 |  IP: Logged

Charles Everett
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: New Jersey
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 04-06-2002 09:49 AM      Profile for Charles Everett   Email Charles Everett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
James R: Lagaan was picked up by Sony Classics to open in NYC/LA arthouses on 5/10. Cinema Paradiso will be re-released by Miramax on 6/7.

 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-06-2002 11:09 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unfortunately, when Miramax released CP here in the US they claimed it was 1.85 (as per the official info in the Film Journal at the time). And true, Miramax etched the subtitles so they would play ok if run at 1.85, but if you did crop to 1.85, you would immediately see that the film was composed for the European standard of 1.66. How can you be sure? Well, if you have eyes, you can see how the compostiion is compromised at 1.85.

If you crop to 1.85, there are shots where it is obvious that significat portions of the image is being cut. For example -- there is a long shot where a character stands close to the top of the picture. If you rack the frame correctly so that the subtitles are EXACTLY at the bottom of the picture, the guy's head is cut off by the top mask. If you get his head the frame, the subtitles fall below the bottom edge. The other downside of printing subtitles at 1.85 when a film is composed at 1.66 is that the subtitles are unnecessarily high into the picture, more of a distraction than they have to be or would be if they were printed at the bottom of the 1.66 frame.

Then again, if I were a distributor who knew that 99% of my potential bookings would only be able to project at 1.85 and would have trouble if subtitles were down at the 1.66 bottom edge, then I guess I would be pragmatic and etch them at 1.85 too. But since each individual print is etched separately, I would at least make a few 1.66 prints so that somewhere, someone, even it is just a few people in an art house someplace, would be able to appreciate the film as the director intended.

Actually, I take that back, maybe 99% of the commectial multiplexs don't have the lenses to play 1.66 flat, but since the Mirimax market is substantially the art house circuits, most of us DO have correct lensing for almost all formats. 1.66 is no big deal. If they re-release in June, maybe it's not to late to get them to etch a few 1.66 prints.

 |  IP: Logged

Michael Brown
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1522
From: Bradford, England
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 04-06-2002 01:14 PM      Profile for Michael Brown   Email Michael Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lagaan is out on UK DVD and Vid on May 27th. Not sure about USA.

Edit:According to Amazon its out.

Anyone know if the Cinema Paradiso re-release is going to hit the UK?

 |  IP: Logged

Michael Brown
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1522
From: Bradford, England
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 04-06-2002 01:16 PM      Profile for Michael Brown   Email Michael Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Then again, if I were a distributor who knew that 99% of my potential bookings would only be able to project at 1.85 and would have trouble if subtitles were down at the 1.66 bottom edge, then I guess I would be pragmatic and etch them at 1.85 too. But since each individual print is etched separately, I would at least make a few 1.66 prints so that somewhere, someone, even it is just a few people in an art house someplace, would be able to appreciate the film as the director intended.

Actually, I take that back, maybe 99% of the commectial multiplexs don't have the lenses to play 1.66 flat, but since the Mirimax market is substantially the art house circuits, most of us DO have correct lensing for almost all formats. 1.66 is no big deal. If they re-release in June, maybe it's not to late to get them to etch a few 1.66 prints.


Maybee 1.66:1 image within a 1.85:1 image area (black matts on the side of the image) would be a good idea ???

(double post sorry)



 |  IP: Logged

Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 04-06-2002 05:45 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Subtitles are nowadays, at least in my experience, almost always placed high enough to clear the 1.85 aperture. Which is unfortunate since it eliminates one clue, easily observed on the bench, that a film is intended for 1.66 projection. You'd think that distributors of art house and specialty product would want to clearly label their prints so there are no mistakes but you'd be wrong. The ones that leave my booth are, however. Except in the very rare instance where there is a 1.66 vs. 1.85 question and even after the showing I'm still not 100% sure and don't want to put anything in writing!

 |  IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-06-2002 06:03 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I really don't see any problem with printing subtitles within the 1.85 area even for 1.66 films (though not for anything shot in Academy!). It doesn't look bad when the films are run at 1.66 and it makes them watchable at 1.85.

As for the "1.66-in-1.85" idea: please, no! This just annoys anyone who has the ability to run the film at 1.66 and gives the theatres which don't have 1.66 capability one less reason to invest in it.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 04-07-2002 01:37 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
True but it would be a real world solution especially when an art film crosses over and goes "wide."

 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-07-2002 03:43 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am 110% with Scott on this one -- save us from letterboxed prints -- it compromises image quality just so some cheap exhib can sit on its fat corporate rump and not have to go out and buy the correct equipment to run a film. It is just another example of how the industry skips happily and stupidly down the road to mediocrity.

And of course it is hard to miss the irony here -- on the one hand the industry is perfectly happy compromising quality by letterboxing (or in Disney's case, releasing their classic animated features with vertically scanned & panned prints, which is even worse, IMHO), yet on the other hand, it thinks this same industry will abandond film and make massive investments in DLP.

Oh, wait; sorry I mispoke -- that really isn't irony, just consistancy, because BOTH things compromise film quality.


 |  IP: Logged

Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 04-07-2002 09:07 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The reduction in image quality would be trivial at best as the resolving power of the intermediate and print stocks far exceeds that of the camera negative. If the projectable area of a high quality 1.85 print is capable of putting a high quality image on the 1.85 area of your screen then I don't see why you would have any problem with the image simply because the side masking must be drawn in a bit. The loss of resolution because of the optical printing stage is canceled by the fact that a larger piece of negative is being used to create a smaller image on the IP so if anything it ought to be a better picture than a similar area of normal 1.85. True, a bit less quality than pure 1.66 but still a high quality picture, better than your 1.85 audiences get.

I'm all in favor of doing it right and do in fact run 1.66 all the time but I think there are plenty of theatres who don't even know there is a world beyond "flat" and "Scope" and therefore don't even realize that a different lens and plate are needed, let alone decide to obtain one. And the distributors don't seem to make any effort to encourage correct projection by proper labeling so if a title moves beyond the specialty houses I don't find anything wrong with printing it in this crossover format. I see it as a way for the filmmaker & distributor to bypass the ignorance of some theatres and deliver a high quality image in the correct aspect ratio to appreciative patrons, outsmarting the know-nothings who would almost certainly muck it up otherwise. We can be anal and say "Do it right or suffer chopped off heads and cropped subtitles" but the latter is exactly what will happen and the audience ends up the loser.

 |  IP: Logged

Peter Berrett
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 602
From: Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-08-2002 05:07 AM      Profile for Peter Berrett   Author's Homepage   Email Peter Berrett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 

I hat to be a spoil sport (no I don't ) but shouldn't this thread be in the movie reviews forum?

Quick call the moderator!

cheers Peter

 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-11-2002 02:55 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Today I spoke with the guys who are laser-etching the negative for the CINEMA PARADISO release (Director's Cut -- who cut it the first time? someone other than the director?); seems they are not etching each print but an IN which marries the subtitles to the print.

I told him about our discussiion here and he said he was sure that Miramax ordered the subtitles to be placed at the 1.66 level. I asked if he were sure, because that sounded very suspect to me, given the practical implications of doing that, so he asked his boss who repeated that they were etching subtitles for the 1.66 aperture, not 1.85. Sounds wrong, but I can only repeat what they told me. I guess the houses that run everything at 1.85 are going to have to do a lot of unpleasant racking and re-racking. Too bad, because we know they won't pay any attention to it and it will be the audience that sufferes -- either they will see visual information chopped at the top of the screen or they will have to understand Italian because the subtitles will be just that....below the mask.


 |  IP: Logged

Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 04-11-2002 03:33 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm glad if they're putting them at 1.66 as it will help force it to be shown right. A 1.85 house will frame down to show all the subtitles and thus greatly exaggerate the top cutoff to the point where anyone and everyone will know they are doing something wrong. 1.85 projection *could* be accomodated as I've discussed. But if they're not doing that then I kind of like the idea of making incorrect projection being either impossible or blatantly wrong to even the most untrained eye.

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-12-2002 07:29 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hopefully, the prints (leaders and cases) will be clearly labeled that the intended aspect ratio is 1.66:1. Unfortunately, the filmmaker's intent is often poorly communicated to the theatre and projectionist, as most theatres specializing in this type of picture will make good effort to show the film at the intended aspect ratio.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

 |  IP: Logged

Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 04-15-2002 03:46 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Absolutely - the number of wasted hours I spent playing 'guess the ratio' on Friday mornings when they could have just told me beggars belief.

Steve Guttag writes:

quote:
I greek friend of mine said it was pretty typical for the small town theatres to only have one projector. An intermission was expected on all films. I think it was on hour reels though rather than 20 minutes.

Yikes! 6,000 feet of nitrate stock on a single spool? No wonder that fleapit burnt down! When I showed nitrate we had a very strict rule - 1,000 feet per reel maximum. Any prints which came in 2,000 lengths were split up, with new acetate spacing and head leaders being added as appropriate.

The heat and expanding gases caused by 6,000 feet going up in an enclosed magazine would probably cause an explosion.


 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.