Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » CAP code secrets revealed (Page 6)

 
This topic comprises 7 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 
 
Author Topic: CAP code secrets revealed
Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 07-28-2002 05:33 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stephen: if you Return of the Jedi pirate DVD was a 4.7gb single sided/layer disc containing an entire feature, then the bitrate must be pretty low - between 4 and 5, I'd guess. That in itself must have made the picture look not much better than a camcorder job. I never encode below 8.0 VBR as I think you can really see the picture degradation, even on a portable telly or bogstandard S-VGA monitor. The most I've ever been able to get on a single disc was 82 minutes, and that was black-and-white.

If it was a pressed disc from a glass master rather than a DVD-R then these pirates must have made serious numbers of copies. There can't be that many DVD pressing plants in existence - surely Mr. Valenti's FBI friends would be able to identify the facility which manufactured it from evidence on the disc, and then pursue the matter through (international, if necessary) law.

 |  IP: Logged

Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 07-28-2002 07:16 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Stephen: if you Return of the Jedi pirate DVD was a 4.7gb single sided/layer disc containing an entire feature, then the bitrate must be pretty low - between 4 and 5, I'd guess. That in itself must have made the picture look not much better than a camcorder job. I never encode below 8.0 VBR as I think you can really see the picture degradation, even on a portable telly or bogstandard S-VGA monitor. The most I've ever been able to get on a single disc was 82 minutes, and that was black-and-white."

I have several DVDs of more than 82 minutes which are single layer. I don't know how long 'Return of the Jedi' is, I've never seen the film, apart from the few minutes which I watched on this disk. I only have a small television, but I would say that the quality was similar to laserdisc, and certainly better than VHS. My player can display the bit rate, but I didn't look to see what it was on this disk. I have just checked a few of my DVDs, and the bit rate seems to be typically about 6 or 7. These are all commercial releases, I have no exprerience of doing MPEG 2 encoding or DVD authoring myself.

"If it was a pressed disc from a glass master rather than a DVD-R then these pirates must have made serious numbers of copies. There can't be that many DVD pressing plants in existence - surely Mr. Valenti's FBI friends would be able to identify the facility which manufactured it from evidence on the disc, and then pursue the matter through (international, if necessary) law."

This was a pressed disk, and that's just the point I was making; a DVD pressing plant is not exactly something which somebody could set up in their bedroom. This is clearly large-scale commercial piracy, and I cannot understand how it happens. I couldn't walk into a any DVD production company in this country, and have them run off a few thousand copies of a major feature film for me. What happens in the Far East, are the pirates operating on such a large scale that they can set up their own production plants, or do the 'legitimate' plants not care, and are happy to do work for the pirates?

Also, how can organisations openly advertise the sale of what are clearly pirate disks, on the internet. Surely it cannot be too difficult to put a stop to this sort of thing, at least the distribution in this country, if not the production overseas.

If the industry is serious about putting a stop to piracy then they need to go after the people who are importing, and distributing this stuff on a large scale.

 |  IP: Logged

Steven Gorsky
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Frederick, MD, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 07-28-2002 07:42 PM      Profile for Steven Gorsky   Author's Homepage   Email Steven Gorsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are a few countries that don't follow copyright laws, and don't cooperate with shutting down pirates. Piracy of coarse thrives in these countries. Expensive pressing equipment doesn't seem to be uncommon, as they make a huge profit from the CDs and DVDs.

One thing to look for is these discs are almost always region 0 (zero). Another thing is the copyright notice will generally have a poor english translation - sometimes with spelling errors.

Now why these make it through customs I have no idea. Some vendors that sell them even claim they aren't bootlegs.

Steven Gorsky


 |  IP: Logged

David Favel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 764
From: Ashburton, New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-28-2002 08:18 PM      Profile for David Favel   Email David Favel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A guy in N.Z. runs 2 day online auctions starting on a Friday night.

This is because we kept complaining & his auctions were being cancelled.
We started to forward these onto the MPANZ but to little effect.
Now between the DVD user group we simply bid for these & do not complete the sale.


 |  IP: Logged

Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-28-2002 10:54 PM      Profile for Thomas Procyk   Email Thomas Procyk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I attended the sci-fi/anime/"geek" convention known as MegaCon in Orlando a while ago where Kevin Smith was the featured speaker. On the convention floor, there were several booths of individuals selling various videotapes, from legitimate commercial copies, to re-edits (such as Episode 1 with Jar Jar removed), to downright bootlegs of screeners!! Ironic enough, "Jay And Silent Bob Strike Back" which had not come out on video or DVD at the time, was readily available at these booths.

During the question and answer period with Kevin Smith, someone asked how he felt about his film being readily available for sale downstairs before its release. He said that he wasn't worried about them hurting sales and whatnot, and that he even wouldn't mind autographing one of the bootleg copies if someone wanted. He ended by saying, "...the film made millions of dollars, so it doesn't really bother me that someone wants to make a few bucks on the side." He actually found it flattering that fans liked the film that much.

Then you have someone like Lucas, when his low-definition mess of a movie was available in a choppy, 8-fps AVI file with the sound cutting out every 5 minutes a week before release, screaming and shouting that he will lose "Millions of Dollars" in opening weekend ticket sales.

=TMP=

 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-29-2002 01:09 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There you go, Tom.....proof that more than a few people in this industry are insane.

 |  IP: Logged

System Notices
Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi

Posts: 215

Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 08-14-2007 05:35 PM      Profile for System Notices         Edit/Delete Post 

It has been 1842 days since the last post.


 |  IP: Logged

John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 08-14-2007 05:35 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Someone today posted to the Wikipedia discussion page for Coded Anti Piracy, noting that Technicolor's CAP codes are described in US Patent 7,206,409 issued April 17, 2007 filed September 25, 2003. Patent assigned to Technicolor and Warner Brothers.

Link to the patent at USPTO (TIFF images)

Link to the patent at freepatentsonline
(PDF images)

--jhawk

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 08-14-2007 07:55 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting reading John! Here is a direct pdf download to the patent for convenience.

 |  IP: Logged

John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 08-14-2007 08:01 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Brad. I don't pretend to understand patents, but I would think that much of this patent would be eclipsed by the 1982 Kodak CAP prior art.

Also, it's utterly hilarious (to me) that apparently the patent was first rejected because a pending application for an MPEG-4 decoder was believed by the examiner to be prior art, apparently because it included start codes and resynchronization codes in the MPEG-4 bitstream, and that was thought to be analagous to CAP marks on a film frame (!). Maybe I'm reading it wrong (this is in the PAIR database on uspto.gov).

--jhawk

 |  IP: Logged

John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 08-25-2007 01:29 AM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
While we're at it, while glancing at Deluxe's web site, apparently they have a trade name for their CAP code: "Forensic Coding Technology (FCT)."

--jhawk

 |  IP: Logged

Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 08-25-2007 04:08 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Stephen Furley
What happens in the Far East, are the pirates operating on such a large scale that they can set up their own production plants, or do the 'legitimate' plants not care, and are happy to do work for the pirates?
At some point in the last five years I read some article somewhere revealing that it's the former. China, The Philippines and Indonesia are apparently where most of these pressing plants are. They do a small amount of legit pressing to formally justify their existence, but the bulk of their output is of pirate copies of western films and music, most of them destined for Asian and Far Eastern markets.

 |  IP: Logged

Damien Taylor
Master Film Handler

Posts: 493
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2007


 - posted 08-25-2007 10:28 PM      Profile for Damien Taylor   Email Damien Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah I think it's the deluxe ones here, they have annoying little shapes made out of dots, like braille letters instead of the sparsely placed dots over there.

It was probably here I heard it, but I remember someone saying that for digital they should modify background features for each print to tell its location, like recoloring inanimate background objects in scenes, lampshades etc...

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Hajducki
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 500
From: Edinburgh, UK
Registered: May 2003


 - posted 03-07-2008 07:21 PM      Profile for Mark Hajducki   Email Mark Hajducki   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I saw my first CrAP coded DVD recently, unfortunately it was a commercial (UK Rental) release.

The DVD of The Illusionist was obviously scanned from a film print (shown by its unsteadiness)

 -

 |  IP: Logged

Kenneth Wuepper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1026
From: Saginaw, MI, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 03-08-2008 06:13 AM      Profile for Kenneth Wuepper   Email Kenneth Wuepper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So, Mark,
Where is the coding in the frame you supplied?

I see the buttons of the police officers uniforms. Is that what you think CAP Code looks like?

All of the ones I have seen are dark spots in relatively clear areas of brightness in the image. Because of this location, they are very distracting to the scene being projected.

Why not follow the TV folks and simply put the print number in the lower right hand corner of the image throughout the entire film? You could even put little prompts there for upcoming features. TV has some unique ideas about their audience.

KEN [Big Grin]

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 7 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.