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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » High-Magenta & Cyan Soundtracks (Page 3)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: High-Magenta & Cyan Soundtracks
Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-22-2000 08:45 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually the labs are worried about the conversion
There is only one northamerican lab that prints full reels as a loop with out shutdown
the rest use old BHP printers (or clones) that run the neg back and forward Since the printer stops to be reloaded after every reel it ramps up and down in speed
There is yet to be any solution to the issue of over 18% cross mod distortion that is found due to density changes dureing the speed change.
No printer head has intesity control fitted to the sound head printer
yes re development is a pain but the cyan issue is even worse
One lab told me they would rather have to print varriable density tracks than a cyan one
Also to note a red led will exhibit far higher level of cross mod distortion than a IR one or a excitor lamp on conventional tracks


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-23-2000 07:10 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"Please reread the first sentence in my post. There's several "Ifs" there. As far as "it" never happening... Seems like there's been several reputable persons, lately, saying that "it" is. Why would they all lie? "<<

Yes there is an "if" in there but your analogy hinges on that if, a flawed if.

As to the reputable persons....it isn't a matter of lieing, it is a matter of wishful thinking and deliberate propoganda to cause the action. These reputable persons have a lot to gain, financially, by the conversion so their statements should be considered quite suspect. Do you realize that the conversion to cyan tracks would give Dolby a better lock on analog sound in cinemas than Dolby Stereo ever did or will. There is Dolby's LED, Jax's light and the laser people. Look at the numbers of manufacturers using Dolby's LED. If that was your company, would you want to push for it?

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-23-2000 08:11 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes and somehow the better sound you get from reverse scan is a conspiracy as well.
Personally I believe that those manufacturers you are implying are driveing this conspiracy for profit are in fact providing a service and are operating on and reporting information rather than creating it. I'd check under my bed for large pod looking things and any communists that might be lurking there

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

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Tom Kroening
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 214
From: Janesville, WI USA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 10-23-2000 09:33 AM      Profile for Tom Kroening   Email Tom Kroening   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay so you are still running in analog with an exciter lamp.. what do you do? IMHO you should upgrade to at cat 701 SRD reader and a jax light adapter. With digital you will probably not have to use analog for anything other then back up. If you get an older print that sound better with an exciter lamp then switch that house back for that show! (Im not exactly sure what is all involved in putting the adapter in and taking it out but if its not that big of a deal then its the way I'd probably go.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-23-2000 06:39 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg:

>>"Yes and somehow the better sound you get from reverse scan is a conspiracy as well."<<

Not hardly. Now that is easily verifiable as to its virtues.

>>"Personally I believe that those manufacturers you are implying are driveing this conspiracy for profit are in fact providing a service and are operating on and reporting information rather than creating it."<<

You certainly are entitled to your opinion, as am I. Mine is based on continual meetings with those involved and continual observation. To think a business wouldn't try to steer an industry towards it's best interest is naive. That is what a good business does to boost it's market.

When evaluating data, it is a matter of questioning the source of your data and look at it in that manner.

I never said these people were evil just that I don't approve of the scare tactics being used like the coversion dates issued. When the committee says something to the affect that the EPA is going to regulate something out of existance and you ask when specifically they are going to do it, you get a "well they haven't done anything yet"(or some statement to that affect)...it makes me question further. If the cyan track was actually a superior track, it would be an easy sell...in fact, it is an inferior track. Therefore, why the push at this time when there is no legal reason to do so?

If it is just forward thinking, then lets skip the whole cyan thing and go straight to digital projection. That is more likely to happen and would be the most environmentally conscious thing to do as well.

Then again, running with film until digital projection is financially feasable probably makes more sense....just like the cyan track, it makes no sense at this time. It is inferior and should be kept on the back burner until such time (and that time may never come) it is leagally needed.

>>"I'd check under my bed for large pod looking things and any communists that might be lurking there"<<

Certainly and un-called for statement

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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John T. Mellor
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Htafield, Pennsylvania, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-23-2000 07:05 PM      Profile for John T. Mellor   Email John T. Mellor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Even if they dont change to the cyan dye track the benifit of the red led is one that some don't quite understand . If you have to maintaine equipment and tune sound syestems you would see the benifit as soon as you do an A - Chain alignment. With the exciter bulb as hard as you may ry you will always pick up some crosstalk . With the LED the amount of cross talk is NIL . The next time you have an alignment done ask to see the diferance on the scope and you will see the result. For those of you that don't know the line between the signal from each cycle should be as flat as possible with the exciter it is almost impossible . Check a Dolby manual they have a good picture of how it should look.
If I can answer any questions please post
Regards
John

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-23-2000 07:12 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Reverse scan is not the issue yes it unquestionably has superior crosstalk performance.
But the red light is an issue. The IR type will outperform the visiable red type in the area of noise and crossmod distortion. These are mesurable. THe high magenta track and the cyan track are the only ones that are optimal for red light
THe silver track and red light have much much higher levels of distortion than either a IR led or the old fashioned excitor lamp.
Also the red leds are ageing much faster than thought they would with achain levels drifting quite a lot compared to the IR which were stable

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Dave Cutler
Master Film Handler

Posts: 277
From: Centennial, CO
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 10-24-2000 08:12 AM      Profile for Dave Cutler   Email Dave Cutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I remember when I started working at a theatre that had the red LED's installed. I thought they were great, no more exciter lamps to die mid show. Then I started having problems with the LED's. They do fade (and not all that slowly, and I had several die. As we know, changing out an LED is not just a simple quick swap. After awhile I started to wish that I had exciters again. 24 theatres with LED's was difficult to keep up with, because I was the only one (other than the tech) that could change them. Anyone can put a new exciter in, but not everyone can be trusted to handle in LED properly.

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Barry Floyd
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1079
From: Lebanon, Tennessee, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-24-2000 08:45 AM      Profile for Barry Floyd   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Floyd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With all of this talk about "reverse scan", Jax Light", "LEDS", "Laser"... I'm beginning to get confused.

As a soon to be theatre OWNER/OPERATOR, I'll be working with somewhat "vintage" equipment. I've got two RCA 9030 soundheads with dual exciters, and a Simplex SH1020 with a single exciter. All three have Kelmar stereo cells in them... but it sounds like they will all be outdated by the time we open our theatre in April of 2002.
Any suggestions for a drive-in owner??

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-24-2000 08:46 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"I'd check under my bed for large pod looking things and any communists that might be lurking there"<<

Certainly and un-called for statement

Steve
Un called for statement?
You're calling some people I know and like liars. You expect peopled to not get a little POed when you do this? I thought my response was pretty contained considering the accusations you're hurling

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-24-2000 09:15 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"Un called for statement?
You're calling some people I know and like liars. You expect peopled to not get a little POed when you do this? I thought my response was pretty contained considering the accusations you're hurling"<<

I never once called any of them liars. And what accusations? That the people pushing the cyan track have the most to gain by it? That is fact. In fact, I find them smart businesspeople.

And believe it or not, I have rather cordial relationships with all of them, even after expressing my concerns at meetings.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-24-2000 02:25 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh brother

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 10-24-2000 06:13 PM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Barry, swap me for the mono cells I have, that way if one of your customer blows the speakers on one side of his car, they can fade to the other with no loss of soundtrack!! That way, you're "crappy car stereo compatible!!!

Sounds great, you're well on your way. On another note, could exhibitors VOLUNTARILY switching to cyan tracks "en masse" be a contributing factor in the fight against e-cinema by making film even cheaper still to produce/run???

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Dave Bird

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Frank Prete
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: Victoria, Australia
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 10-25-2000 01:20 AM      Profile for Frank Prete   Email Frank Prete   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Gordon,

you said:

...I think we will probably see DLP long before we see mainstream implimitation of cyan tracks...

Mate, if people can't agree on a date to change one part of a piece of film, can you imagine how much harder it will be to get them to agree on scrapping it completely! I think the previous fourty odd posts proves that.

The same arguments will come up again - the studios win and does the exhibitor pay the cost etc...

With regard to changing your machines over to reverse scan set-ups, why bother at all with Jax lights or any other imitations. Get the proper units to suit your machines and in the process, buy reverse scan readers that can handle Dolby Digital. Sure they are not as stable as penthouse readers, but once they are in upgrading to digital if you don't have it will be easy as pie. Steve, I'm sure this ads more weight to the Dolby strongarming the market theory, but hey let face it - red LED reverse readers are a wonderful invention that as exhibitors we have an excuse to install. Cyan or no Cyan, I know that there are a lot more theatres in our chain that we will be able to run digital in as a result of the change. And that far outways any and all improvements to the analogue sound.

Greg, I checked under my bed. Whilst I didn't find any communists (the cold war finished a while ago), there were some strange pods...

Frank

The only 15 letter word that can be spelled without repeating a letter is uncopyrightable.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-25-2000 10:27 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank,
I totally agree with you on this. The reverse scan addition makes such a drastic improvement...be it with white, pink, green, or red light that there is no way one should bother with anything else. Either leave the Exciter lamp in there or go the reverse scan route.

With the new C.E. scanners available, the cost is not really a factor anymore.

Total changeover to DLP????? Probably not im my lifetime. I can see it happening in 3rd world countries though on a large scale as film shipment over there is a killer(Literally, sometimes).

Under my bed??????? An old Nagra Stereo recorder and microphones, a few dust balls and my dog Miko sound asleep. Definately no Commies, she'd attack them.

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