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Topic: High-Magenta & Cyan Soundtracks

Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 10-25-2000 11:39 PM

Does a piece of film with an actual sound track (not a test or alignment film) actually exist at this time? If it does I would like to hear the alleged difference in sound quality. What I am thinking we will do is remove the exciter lamp, then install a small mirror in its place. Then turn the follow spot around to point at the mirror and drop in the cyan or magenta gel, INSTANT red light source, nothing to buy, and easy to change back. It seems just as practical and a lot less expensive than any of the systems discribed.

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David Kilderry
Master Film Handler

Posts: 355
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 10-26-2000 04:04 AM

Barry,

Your request has been a little lost and neglected amoungst the spirited debate here!

Don't worry too much. You have a few options. The easiest is to use a Jaxlight which simply replaces your exciter lamp as a plug-in. From that point you will be able to choose from many different after market retro fits for RCA - still a reasonably common sound head, we've got two in the warehouse.

You will find many cheap conversions for older style equipment - just wait until the critical mass of Asia, Africa, India and South America gets on board with cyan tracks. Not too many Simplex Milleniums, Christies, Kinoton etc in those parts. In fact most equipment is Simplex, Century, RCA and the local copies.

I would love to know more about the drive-in you are opening (re-opening).

Frank raises an excellent point, can you imagine the inertia in the world-wide industry when digital projection is proposed to replace film? It started 2 years ago and will drag on for the next few decades the way things are going. Can't see General Cinema, AMC, Regal, Edwards, Hoyts, United Artists etc rushing for digital in the next few years. Hell, most don't even spend enough on maintenance to replace the exciters every six months!!!

David

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-26-2000 07:59 AM

Bill,
You have missed the whole point!! Its the gain from the reverse scan pickup that is the chief advantage here. Not the color of the light.
Mark

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 11-06-2000 10:23 AM

Many thanks for everyone's input and sorry I've been 'silent' for the last fortnight or so. This is because I went on holiday, then came back to find my workplace closed because it is flooded. UK readers will know that York has just had its worst floods since records began (which was in 1657) - dunno if this has made it to any US newses yet. With the elections coming up I somewhat doubt it...

Anyway, our electrical intake switchgear is under 6ft of water and so we're closed for the duration. If they're not there already, pics of the flood should soon be posted on our website at www.picturehouse-cinemas.co.uk.

Cheers
Leo

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John Eickhof
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 588
From: Wendell, ID USA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-07-2000 01:11 AM

I have been off line for a while, it is interesting to see how this discussion has
evolved! First, to Steve, It appears to me that you are well versed, however, it also appears that you do not have much contact with actual exhibiters like Mark and I do,
to further explain my feelings to LED (preferrably reversce scan) upgrades, I have to personally service over 125 screens in 9 states. I have been working with my customers
to upgrade their systems in a timely manner in order to save a possible 'sudden death' situation if and when the first cyan track does appear on the print. I do not have the time nor the manpower to immediately install 25-50 units or more in 25-50 different towns on that given friday nite when this would happen...I am concerned more with the overall quality of presentation that my customers give than the profitabilty of sale of these items. In fact, as a small
business owner, my profit is lower than the larger competitors due to 'cost-plus' practices and other things I dont wish to address here. I am concerned with my ability to best serve my customers and meet their needs when practical. It is also a pleasure to hear when they call me and say how that old 'mono' system sounds better than before with the reverse scan! Usually, the next call is for upgrades to stereo! I think this is what it is all about! Ultimately, the movie goer will benifit from my constructive suggestions! I think this should make my position clear! I am sure that Mark will
agree with me! Again, I too am dis-satisfied with the results I have heard now while testing with cyan film, the noise levels are indeed higher, but you have to take into account the added response of these readers.
Thus, the NR system must be adequate.
The IR leds are far worse as to noise levels, in fact the 1khz signal is almost buried
behind the noise!
Mark...Thanks for your input & honesty too..
let's keep'em on the screen! John

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-07-2000 05:30 PM

Well i also service about 200 screens and most of my customers are rather blunt on the issue. When the film is here they will convert and not unitl.
The IR units have lower noise level than the vissible red and on Silver based tracks they have substanially lower level of distortion.
The reverse scan is a improvement but to ram it through on the grounds that they are trying is wrong. I agree with Steve on this issue.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-07-2000 07:04 PM

John, I totally agree with you on this issue. It is a manpower thing to a great extent if the cyan thing does happen. But the reverse scan gains are far more than being ready for cyan as I am going to point out below.
Personally Gord, I would not want to be stuck having to install 200 scanners if it does ever happen. You WOULD not be able to do it and many of your customers would be dead in the water and then instantly hate you. Cyan tracks are not the main reason to change to a reverse scan unit. The real benefit is the increased sound quality. If this is not apparent to you just on listening then you need to have your hearing checked. Almost a full octave is gained in the hf and distortion is so much lower than conventional .47 mil optics that the noise difference between IR and RED is rather a moot point(except with cyan). With the extra bandwidth comming in on the high end there is also alot more being decoded into the surround track. This is all stuff that the re-recording mixers heard, and intended to be heard in the theater(hopefully). All of these gains are obvious to everyone that has listened to a before and after of both standard optics and reverse scan that I have installed.
I guess if you want to keep your customers from having the best optical playback available then you will just continue to ignore it and argue against it.
I will never push it on my customers either. All have pretty much asked for it to be installed and they have been far happier with it than the old exciter based stuff. For many exhibitors it is a huge gain in sound quality. With service rates as high as they are, adding a reverse scan unit for 550.00, one or two at a time, during quarterly service is not even felt by the exhibitor. But your customers with 6 or more screens may be screaming at you at some point soon in time.
Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 11-07-2000 07:53 PM

Mark,

I have pretty much said my piece on this subject but your point on "what if" they cyan track were to take hold needs to be addressed.

Just what do you think would be the fastest timeframe cyan tracks would be issued with the knowledge that less than 70% of all theatres are able to play them? That is, when a studio or lab would print the entire run with cyan tracks, be damned the outcome. With no EPA regulation pending, would that timeframe be the same or would it evaporate?

Selling reverse scan readers on their merits should be an easy one, regardless of the LED's color. The cyan issue, shouldn't be at this time.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-08-2000 05:33 AM

Steve said: "Selling reverse scan readers on their merits should be an easy one."

Almost everyone can agree to that .

Actually, the theatres that don't yet have digital sound are the ones that most need the improvements in sound that reverse scan offers, since all their movies are played by that reader. Except for the number of channels and channel separation, the perceived quality of a good Dolby SR analog track played on a properly aligned system with reverse scan reader can rival digital sound.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-08-2000 07:19 AM

Yes Steve,
But what if..............
It is possible that it could happen. Anything can happen. Personally, I hope it does not. I feel the same way you do about cyan. But I won't have to scurry around from theater to theater if...............giving my customers excuses.........getting them back on screen again. Certainly they sell themselves just on their merits alone. Compatibility with cyan just happens to be a very minor merit of the red led scanners.
Mark

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-08-2000 08:36 AM

Mark I think you are missing my point
The red LED will produce far higher distortion on a silver based track than the IR ones did
I have always stated that the reverse scan in itself is a noticable improvement but the red vs IR is not.
As for customers choosing to wait that is their choice especially since the canadian EPA is quite clear they have no plans to mandate a conversion.
Almost all the Canadian labs are not keen on the use of the cyan track as most of there prints seem to have problems due to the ramp up/down exposeure change in density that affects the cross mod distortion at the head and tail of each reel.
Remember that a large volume of the prints in the US are printed at Canadian labs who are in no hurry to see any change. They are even balking at print high magenta tracks.
Also the coversion rate in the world is far less than 70% and since most prints going to non northamerican venues are used prints from North America I can't see any distributor keen on the idea of haveing to do a print run for export or risk loosing that income (Which regularly exceeds the domestic revenue) because most of the rest of the world hasn't converted or has equipment in use that is non led friendly.
The reverse scan issue should stand on its own merrits not with a threat nor should it be designed as a compromissed solution to a risk that is rather vague at best

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-08-2000 10:44 AM

The printing exposure (soundtrack density) needed to produce minimum "cross-modulation" distortion on traditional cyan+magenta+silver tracks is different for red and white light readers. If it is optimized for white light readers, sound from a traditional track may be slightly sibilant with a red LED reader. If optimized for red light readers, traditional tracks may be sibilant on white light readers. "High magenta" tracks (magenta+silver) are more compatible with BOTH types of reader. Since the majority of readers in North American theatres already use red LED readers, labs and distributors are converting to "high magenta" tracks to assure better compatibility with all current readers.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 11-08-2000 11:26 AM

Mark,

Yes I understand your "what if" idea...and that was the point of my question...what if?

What would your best estimate of a manditory switch to cyan tracks given an EPA involvement. And then what would it be if there is no EPA mandate.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-08-2000 12:43 PM

Did Al Gore or George Bush win the election? That may answer the question about what the EPA might do in the USA.

Other countries and some municipalities are already putting restrictions on the use of hydroquinone (silver soundtrack developer) and the discharge of silver into the environment, and the movie industry is being pro-active in finding alternatives. Cyan Dye soundtracks allow much more environmental processes:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/newsletters/notes/june2000/silverSound.shtml http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/sound/film1.shtml http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/dyetrack.shtml

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