Have you ever noticed that the people that don't mind altering how a film is played back tend to be the people that don't make/sell/use Dolby brand equipment?

<turning Andy Rooney voice off>

Ok, as to the Dolby-B thing on cassette decks Ray D., I specifically said recorders since it was my experience that the Harry-Homeowner types would indeed record their favoite LPs (or even off the radio) tuns with Dolby NR on but play them back with the NR off (using the same cassette recorder).

Brad as to Dolby cassette decks (particularly of the 70s/early 80s) proper calibration ment EQ, Bias and Level. In fact, I believe it was a requirement that all Dolby equipped decks have a Dolby reference level indicated on the "VU" meters. The double-D symbol would show up on the meters often or sometimes just a unique "tick" mark and this represented Dolby-Level. Since the Dolby NR system doesn't operate on the signal above Dolby-level, it is essential that that point be established to ensure the proper operating area of the companders. A fact that remains with us today, even with SR and with films.

Gordon, the Cat. 223 did indeed allow the various non-syncs to use the VCAs but alas it did not allow them to use the EQs...they were only used by optical.

As to the analogy of the Academy curve vs. Dolby-B on cassette decks, there is truth in that. Hollywood films mixed for monural, did have a pre-emphasis to boost the HF on the record-end since the Academy response was the presumed response of the "typical" un-equalized auditorium. Playing the track back without the academy curve on an equalized theatre would have the sound play back brighter..

And "B+" hasn't been in theatre layman's terms since tubes went out of vogue!

Sheesh,

Steve

BTW the only people who make Dolby equipment are (is) Dolby, unless you hadn't noticed.

I don't see what Dolby has to do with playing back Academy (or otherwise) mono films. Besides, I seem to recall reading somewhere that it is not uncommon (outside of the USA, of course) for films to be recorded in mono using SVA tracks, in other words, full-range non-Dolby mono. To play back such a film with Dolby's Academy filter in circuit is in my book tantamount to audio sacrilege.

Now lets get down to the nitty gritty. An Academy mono film will not play back correctly, by YOUR standards, on one of your Dolby processors. Why? Because there is NO slit compensation in pre-Dolby equipment and NO 1/3 octave room equalisation, the very equipment that was designed to play Academy mono films. So play the film back on a Dolby processor and you have total non-compliance with what the director intended. Yes?, No? So where is your consistency, where are your standards Mr Guttag? The optical Academy filter (used in ALL current sound processors) is supposedly the same curve as has applied since the early days of optical film sound, so to be accurate, shouldn't Dolby turn off the slit compensation AND shouldn't they turn off or modify the room eq when playing an Academy mono film? Is all this toying with the spectral response what "the director intended"?

Besides, were you there in the mixing theatre when they were mixing Gone With The Wind or Ben Hur? Do you really know what the director or the sound mixer really heard? Things have changed an awful lot since Dolby came on the scene and standardised mixing theatres (or at least attempted to). As far as I have been able to ascertain, prior to 1975 the use of optical record/playback simulators was rare if unheard of, so the soundtrack usually sounded a lot better in the mixing theatre than after it went to film. (Anyone with definitive information on this point is most welcome to contact me).

Also I must say that I must be a Harry-Homeowner type (whatever that is) because in my younger days I too was guilty of turning off the Dolby B because it sounded like crap, nothing like the original material that I had just recorded. It wasn't until I was old enough to afford audiophile-class cassette decks that I realised the problem was due to the crappy alignment of the cheap decks, not with the NR system.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

In My Rush Limbaugh voice......
Steve has apparently been living in his own little solid state only world a bit too long. Tubes are back and in vogue better than ever, even more than they ever were in the audio industry when there were ONLY tubes. Where have you been my friend? Stuck between two reel to reel machines a bit too long perhaps? Steve you need to get out in what is now called the new tube world and check it out! Leave Film-Tech behind for an hour and splore the new tube world on the net.

The Rushter voice continuing.....
He also had the audacity to say in an important forum that......

"Have you ever noticed that the people that don't mind altering how a film is played back tend to be the people that don't make/sell/use Dolby brand equipment? "

Holy cow, that is a load of ! The Liberals should get ahold of this guy and hire him...

What brand you sell has nothing to do with wanting to modify how something sounds or not, or how something operates. Thats one of the most ludicrous statements ever made on this network! In fact if you get to the facts you push a brand of processor that cannot be modified at all, except through the operating software itself. Get the manufactirer to modify it for you.....yea, right! My friend, your stuck in the muck selling that piece of equipment! If you want to limit yourself to that one processor, thats your choice, but there are many of us out there, including the man above this posting that can see right through the limitations of that processor. Although your brand is all I used to sell, but since that company has shot themselves in the head byb producing ONLY one processor, I wouldn't sell your brand of processor anymore if my life depended on it as I don't ever want to limit what my customers can or can't do in their theatres.

Get with it... The man above this posting has by far the best ounding processor out there, and it actually been out there for quite some time. Steve, you should do your customers a favor and climb aboard on his wagon before it leaves the station for the next town.
Mark @ GTS

P.S. There is one advantage at least from a buisness standpoint to the processor that you do sell and that is in 7 years or so major semiconductor components will become obsolete and you'll be selling your customers another processor! That'll mean a good P&L that year for you.

>>"BTW the only people who make Dolby equipment are (is) Dolby, unless you hadn't noticed."<< Yeah, and?

Ray there is total consistancy with my arguement. The Dolby academy filter is designed to undo the affects of the slit loss correction and the b-chain equalization such that it will make the theatre the ideal academy curve.

In fact, when in magnetic mode, the Cat. 109 has less of a roll off since the slit loss compensation is not an issue (and the mag head is presumed already flat to 12KHz) hence why the Cat. 109 has three modes (flat, optical, and magnetic)...there is also a link that can be used to roll off the bass. The idea is to superimpose the ideal Academy filter over a tuned room.

>>"Besides, were you there in the mixing theatre when they were mixing Gone With The Wind or Ben Hur?<<"

Actually....

No I wasn't and neither were any of us here. But I have measured many theatres that were around when they were new films and unfortunately, that was was before the R2 and such analyzers could "Record" their response. An unequalized period speaker playing through a screen in the typical barn of a theatre (say from 800-1500 seats) was not as good as most would like to think. In fact, the Academy curve is a pretty good represenation....once one moves into the 50s, things seem to get better but nothing like when the "X" curve comes into play in the '70s and beyond.

The "harry-homeowner" reference is bascially anyone that isn't concerned with the technicalities of a particular item (be it electronics, mechanics, plumbing, carpentry...etc) they just use it...a common term here or at least in my part of the country (mid-Atlantic)

As to Dolby-B and cassette decks, no doubt there were bad ones or merely uncalibrated ones...for the most part, I only had what I would call "mid-fi" equipment like Sharp or Pioneer and never had a problem with Dolby-B or that new fangled tape stuff CrO2 (only once or twice used FeCr02). Later in life, I got a Nakamichi but found I could get my Pioneer CT-F1250 to sound every bit as good but not even the Nak could sound as good as my cheapest Reel-to-Reel (Teac A-3300-SX)

Whilst you may have turned off your NR switch due to mistracking, I know a bunch of guys that did cuz it sounded brigher and brighter must be better.

And now over to Mark G.....

Mark you ignorant slut......

Perhaps you wish tubes were used like they used to be in theatres (we are talking about theatre right?) but rightly or wrongly they aren't...even in the home market they are only a nitche.

If you wanted to make your arguement, you should have stated that when the CP-50 came out, many of the theatres they went in WERE running on tubes and hence the B+ reference.....

>>"Holy cow, that is a load of <offensive symbol deleted>! The Liberals should get ahold of this guy and hire him...What brand you sell has nothing to do with wanting to modify how something sounds or not, or how something operates.

Hmmm I said something to the effect (regarding the non-Dolby manufacturers, dealers and users tending to not mind altering how a film is played back) one of the manufacturers have chimed in, a dealer (you have chimed in) and a user (none yet but it may happen).

While a difference of philosophy, generally the Dolby method has been one plays it back the way it was recorded, other methods often offer alterations either by design or by happenstance and even feature it.

BTW, I'm generally regarded as a conservative or a moderate.

>>"Thats one of the most ludicrous statements ever made on this network!"<<

Actually, a lot of you comments tend to fall into that category as you tend to fly off half-cocked...as in this case.

>>"your stuck in the muck selling that piece of equipment! "<<

Not hardly. The CP-650 has it's place just like other equipment and unlike your comments may otherwise indicated, the CP-650 is only but one of the processors I place (not push and you say). But if you want Dolby Digital, it is a pretty good bang for the buck, particulalry if you plan to play conventional hollywood fare and possibly pro-AC3 or DVDs.

>>"If you want to limit yourself to that one processor, thats your choice, but there are many of us out there, including the man above this posting that can see right through the limitations of that processor."<<

I don't but your comments like:

>>"I wouldn't sell your brand of processor anymore if my life depended on it"<<

Show that you would exclude it even if it would make sense. How is that serving your customers?

>>"Get with it... The man above this posting has by far the best ounding processor out there, and it actually been out there for quite some time. Steve, you should do your customers a favor and climb aboard on his wagon before it leaves the station for the next town. Mark @ GTS"<<

Now this one needs some addressing....

But first, did you legally change your last name to "@ GTS" And furthermore, why must their be a sales pitch in most of your posts?

As to Ray and the Panastereo equipment...surprise I have sold it. In fact, not just any unit, but with the CSP-4600 (70mm) and the best remote control to ever grace a cinema processor...it's got not one, not two, but three volume knobs on it (music, film and booth monitor). The CSP-1200 had already knocked out the CP-65 for me before Dolby canned it. It is what the CP-65 shoulda been. So don't lecture me on the train leaving the station, please get yourself on the train and leave. So far the only issues with it for me have been relatively minor and almost none affect the end user. Even Brad would forget about his beloved CP-65s for the CSP-1200

As to your silly comment on obsolete semi-conductors, that is an issue for all manufacturers, I believe the Pana (and I'm sure others) use Analog Devices components and other single source parts, blink your eye and they can be gone, it isn't just digital stuff. Analog Devices seems to can parts outta nowhere faster though, I know they did it to me once.

Mark, I have no issues with Ray, we do have differing philosophies on pre-Dolby sound (that we have discussed long before this thread reared it's ugly head (in private so don't bother with the search).

Ray, I don't worship Dolby, in fact, the last processor I really liked that they brought out was the CP-200 and it still ranks #1 in my book for what it is and when it came out. Heck, by stuffing a diode, you can even nix that bad old Academy filter from mono (or in my case Perspecta Stereo) films!

Now one thing I wish the CSP-1200s in the states would get is the metal backs on the EQ cards and gold plated jumpers like the Aussies have!

Lastly, Mark, if you want to continue this, please do it via e-mail or by phone.

Steve

To get one thing clear. In the future, I'll post my name depending on where I am typing from such as Mark @ GTS, or Mark @ Home, or Mark @ Idaho, or Mark @ Colorado, etc. OK. Also, Whats wrong with a little plug for the company U work for. MANY other dealers do it here. Are you saying that they are also doing a sales pitch as well. Well, at least in general my pitch is usually smaller than their pitch. Perhaps you don't want to do a sales pitch for your company and I respect that, but don't criticise others for doing so. Many of us here are proud of where we work, who we work for and our accomplishments in the field.

I have no interests in selling ANY of our GTS customers a CP650, or anybodys digital based MAIN SYSTEM PROCESSOR for that matter. There is no need for a digital based processor at all. Based on my experience which is not just with digital based cinema equipment, but also with broadcast and lighting equipment as well, its a fact that being digital based only spells trouble in River City sooner or later. Remember there are still thousands of CP-50's out there humming along just fine.

Also, Compare the sound of the 650 to the CSP-1200 sometime in a diorect A to B setup......Yes, you'll be back on Ray's train. GTS's customers will only be getting the best sounding unit!
Also.... Over the past 6 months or so a number of GTS's and other local dealers customers have had so much trouble with SRD tracks on brand new prints(let alone used)that we at GTS have actually considered switching entirely to selling only DTS digital playback on jobs in the future. Well, as it turns out they will be getting the best bang for the buck as that combo is still less $$, and WILL prove more reliable, and repairable overall. If someone HAS to have an SRD playback system then they'll get a DA-20 and a CSP. Simple as that, and nothing wrong with it either. In fact I have a specially configured CSP 70mm system quoted in an 8 perf 70mm system that will be going in later this year. There is nothing else to put in that sort of system unless its custom built. Dolby can't guarantee all parts availability for CP-200's anymore. As a result, I will no longer consider the 200 viable anymore in an application like this. So much for the 200 even though it WAS my favorite too. However, I have made up my mind to leave it behind, theres a better sounding unit out there that'll keep going for along time.

I'm curious about you claiming tubes to be a niche market these days.....I think the hundreds(literally) of audio manufacturers around the world that produce ONLY tube gear would be suprised to hear that, including Western Electric. Steve, Ya don't reopen a mothballed major Vacuum tube manufacturing plant for a small niche market my friend!

Yes, Obsolete semiconductors are a real problem for everyone, I agree. What it really boils down to on this issue is servicability of a given piece of equipment.....
But that will be less of a problem for GTS, and our customers. We will have no problem finding small qualtities of semis to take care of what ever analog processors I've sold. Ultras units being the exception there with their custom chips. but I don't sell them either. When Ultras semi is extinct they WILL have to be replaced with a new processor as well. Good P&L that year for alot of dealers!

The bigger problem here is that when the digital Semi's are no longer available, a given manufacturer will stop supporting repair of the boards in the units. REMEMBER, HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN FIX THEM, YOU CAN'T! Once he stops repairing them you're undeniably stuck in the muck with that given unit no matter what brand. Even if you can find small quantities of these digital semis its doubtful that you could fix the board. You might also need a closely gaurdrd software program to burn into a new semi too. Good luck getting that,and then U need an EROM burner too. It also requires EXPENSIVE surface mount soldering stations to repair them. All the while, my customes will keep on going like the everready bunny with their CSP-1200 even if all the semis in their DA-20, or DTS are extinct.

Lastly, I never place a piece of equipment anywhere. I PUSH what in my experience is the right equipment to sell to what ever job. I have never had a job come along that is right for only a completely digital based processor and don't forsee a job like that. Pushing good equipment to a customer based on alot of experience is what a good salesman/technicians does. Weather it be a more expensive route, or less expensive route to go, it WILL be the right way to go and the longest lived/best sounding route as well.
Mark @ GTS
P.S. Just for the record I am neither liberal or conservative. I would consider myself completely neutral from all that gobblediegoop!

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>>"Also, Compare the sound of the 650 to the CSP-1200 sometime in a diorect A to B setup"<<

In a theatre running Dolby Digital? Sure, the CSP-1200 DA-20 method will certainly cost more but playing through a sheet just how may extra tickts do you think yor GTS customers will sell for the extra cost?

>>"Over the past 6 months or so a number of GTS's and other local dealers customers have had so much trouble with SRD tracks on brand new prints "<<

Sounds more like an indicment of GTS technicans than the format. While the stray defective reel does show up on all of the digial formats, I haven't seen this surge of bad Dolby digital prints in the last 6 months. If you don't know how to set up your digital readers (above the projectors and in the soundheads) perhaps GTS should get someone that can.

Regarding the CP-200, on this we agree...I too have left it behind now that there is a viable alternative unless there is some odd reason for the CP-200.

>>"All the while, my customes will keep on going like the everready bunny with their CSP-1200 even if all the semis in their DA-20, or DTS are extinct"<<

You forgot SDDS in there...surprising since the 1000 is already just about unservicable. But before the CP650 or CP-500 become unservicable, film as the main stream medium will probably be so the issue will be moot. However, the CP650 will handle the likely DCinema sound formats, in the digital domain, all the way through to the outputs!

What you push, I place...I place the correct piece of equipment, you push what you want.

Steve

Steve, You know that I'm every bit as qualified as U are to do a simple alignment, and we both use pretty much the same equipment and so on. You yourself have stood up for me at least once in this forum when I was being attacked by some one, I can't remember even what it was about. Needless to say I appreciated that very much, but now you are attacking me, and for no reason, just like he did. Your attempted indictment is a joke. If you want to ignore the fact that the prints are the problem thats fine but, but its not something I'd ignore or even could if I wanted to. I've driven lots of miles only to diagnose for a customer a bad section of a certain reel of the SRD track(many of the problems I found woulda killed the SDDS as well but not the DTS). I've come across many different problems ranging from light fogging, damage to the track in a certain area, mis-printed track than ran off center and then back on, etc. I'd be happy to let U speak to any of our customers about these occurances we go through every now and then. About half are first run and the other half sub run. Due to this occuring once in a while, there are many theatre owners that flat out shy away from SRD completely after talking to other area theatre owners. And yes, They all know each other too so the word spreads and that compounds the problem regarding any particuluar format. It seems they attack DTS the least, but they've all paid for new UG kits too!

BTW: All of these readers but two are cat 700/701's except the two which are late model basement style. Can I help it if enone of these readers can read a defective print? Also there's no finger to point here except to the labs in these cases. Dolby's system is a good one and one that I've always supported as you well know.

For some reason or other It seems like alot of poor quality prints are getting shipped up to these more remote places, just to dump them someplace and get some run out of them. Perhaps they still have the additude that patrons in Wheatfield, Colorado won't know the difference. Don't forget, there is some QC still going on in the labs and some prints are still graded. We had a batch of Harry Potter prints that all had snagged sprocket holes all the way through the print! Many theatres here had to fight with the print on the platter just so it would run, looked like a cloverleaf.
Getting a new print didn't cure that problem as the new prints were exactly the same.

Don't get me wrong, I don't DISLIKE SRD at all, just the consiquences it sometimes brings to our customers, and then to us, yes, at GTS.

You also said "What you push, I place"
That doesn't make sense as you are saying that we both sell the same stuff. True to some extent I guess!

And lastly, Careless price discussion? Where? When? I'm more than happy to let anyone know what price we will sell something for on this site or anyplace else. Thats what buisness and being competitive are all about my friend. Sorry if you didn't like the price I gave out.....
Mark @ Home
P.S. Panastereo also makes D-Cinema Processor as well.
SDDS, Whats that? Nothing really viable that I've heard about......

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I will interject one thing though, I have seen lab quality really decline in these last couple of years (most noticeably from Deluxe Hollywood, but that's not anything new). However I've not seen any degredation in SRD tracks. I guess the exchanges don't like you guys in Utah!

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