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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » NORTH BY NORTHWEST VistaVision? (Page 6)

 
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Author Topic: NORTH BY NORTHWEST VistaVision?
Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2738
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 08-10-2002 11:51 PM      Profile for Claude S. Ayakawa   Author's Homepage   Email Claude S. Ayakawa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was only seventeen years old when Paramount released Cecil B. DeMille's "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" in 1956 and I must have seen the film at least four times in a movie theatre because I was facinated by the theme of the film and the movie itself. After wearing out the first music soundtrack LP by Elmer Bernstein on Dot Records, I bought another one with the allowance money my mother gave me. I now have the music on a CD and it is in stereo which was lacking on the records. As far as the ten minute 'lecture' trailer is concerned, I saw it only once in a theatre and I enjoyed it because I found what Mr. DeMille had to say very interesting and informative. As often as I went to the movies at that time, I have always wondered why the projectionist at my local theatre did not play the trailer too often.
Now I know why. By the way, Mr. Demille once again spent almost five minutes repeating the same thing between the film's overture and main credits during the movie and continued during the prologue. I still had no problem with all of this and actually missed it when Paramount first released the movie on tape without the ten minute trailer and lecture before the film. Thank you Paramount for including the 'lectures' on the deluxe laserdisc set and DVD.

By the way, because Hawaii had only one print in circulation during it's road show at the now defunct Kuhio Theatre and the initial popular price engagement about a year later, the print was an IB/ DYE Transfer and I remember how gorgeous it was. The IB strip of film from the movie I have attest to that fact.

-Claude


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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 08-13-2002 11:27 PM      Profile for Martin Brooks   Author's Homepage   Email Martin Brooks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frankly, I think almost any presentation at the Cinerama Dome would be disappointing. I saw the revival of Lawrence of Arabia at the Ziegfeld in NY and at the Cinerma Dome, and it was far superior at the Ziegfeld.

The sound bounces around the Dome's curved walls and there is a great deal of very obvious parallax distortion on the highly curved screen at the Dome.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-14-2002 11:24 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wasn't the Dimension 150 system designed specifically to address the curve distortion on the deep curve screens? Was that distortion correction done somewhere in the shooting or printing process of a Dimention 150 picture (or should I say THE single D150 picture ever made) or was it an actual lens that was used in projection? I was under the impression, perhaps erroniously, that it was the later because standard films, both scope and flat, projected on the curved screen at the UA 150 in Syossett looked fine with very little bowing effect. Was this because standard films were being projected through a Dimension 150 correction attachment? Or am I just so in love with the deep curve screen that I just didn't give a hoot about the horizontal lines bending a bit?

I love the Zegfield, but it has to get negative points for not having a curved screen or stadium seating. There isn't much they can do about the seating, but I have never forgiven them for not having a curved screen as per original scope specs.

The new AMC Empire on forty dousch street (Manhattan) and the UA at Sheephead Bay (Brooklyn) both have stadium seating and large, well lit screens with mild curves; the come-back of the original CinemaScope mild curve screen is a very welcome development. Besides the optical advantages of better light distribution, a curved screen just imparts the image with a sense of expansiveness and grandure and the audience with a feeling of being enveloped by the image that just cannot be obtained on a flat screen. The stadium seating also provides many more sweet-spot seats putting more people closer to the screen and hence more patrons are able to get the image within the periferal vision range -- a 50 foot screen will look relatively larger to more people with stadium seating because the seating scheme can keep more seats closer to the screen. In the Zegfield, people sitting even in the rear orchestra are presented with a diminutive looking screen due to distance. For the people in the mezzinine, the sence of a "large" screen is all but lost.


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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 08-14-2002 11:41 AM      Profile for Martin Brooks   Author's Homepage   Email Martin Brooks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My experience at the AMC Empire on 42nd St, even on their main screen (#6, I think) is that the sound quality is very brittle and harsh, especially when using SDDS. I saw Minority Report there and found the sound disappointing (and the film grainy as hell!), although I didn't see Minority Report in another theatre to compare.

I did once attend a SMPTE meeting which had a demonstration of DLP on that same screen and the sound was fine, so it's not a B-chain problem.

I think I've only been to the Sheepshead Bay once and it's currently under renovation anyway (they're adding screens.)

Aside from the Ziegfeld, I think my favorite NYC theatre is the Loews Lincoln Square, even though that doesn't have stadium seating either. But the curved screen in the "Loew's" (which is the only THX certified theatre in the complex) tends to have distorted images or soft focus on the edges.

IMHO, best place to sit at the Ziegfeld is aligned with the first set of surrounds.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 08-14-2002 11:53 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just as a point of information, I don't think SDDS is *inherently* brittle or harsh. Brad or someone mentioned in another thread that there was a problem or bug or something in the SDDS EQ procedures that, if you followed it to the letter, would result in harsh sound. Sony issued updated instructions or something to correct that problem. There's an SDDS-8 installation here in Eugene (Regal Cinema World 8, house #3) that sounds GREAT. None of the brittle/harsh quality, but still nice clean highs (and lows). Their SDDS EQ really sounds good to me. Their DTS EQ in the same house isn't as good as the SDDS...


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 08-14-2002 12:38 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was recently told by the long time editor of a well known actor/director that they both dislike DTS. I said that all things being equal DTS ought to sound the best of the three given the higher bit rate. No no, the editor said, certain things just don't sound right in it. Something about the compression algorithm. The story goes that already years ago they demo'd the shortcomings (not sure against what--maybe fullcoat mag) for Spielberg who was a strong advocate (was he a co-owner, too?) who, he said, acknowledged it but didn't have an answer. Their films still go out with all three.

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 08-14-2002 12:44 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank

Here's an excellent article on how the D-150 process worked.

http://hjem.get2net.dk/in70mm/magazine/backissues/1996/47/d150/come_back_d150.htm

BTW, the Ziegfeld did once install a deep curve streen temporarily for the 70mm re-release of THIS IS CINERAMA. According to the review in the NY Times, it was a prety underwhelming experience. It was noted that instead of using real curtains, a SLIDE of curtains was projected between shows.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-14-2002 12:46 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve Kraus said: "I was recently told by the long time editor..."

Is her name Susan?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-14-2002 01:08 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One point of confusion for many people is curved screens, especially with regards to geometric distortion.

Systems like 3-Strip Cinerama and D-150 were specifically DESIGNED for projection on a deeply curved screen, to give a "wrap around" effect, especially for people sitting near the "sweet spot". Projecting normally shot films on these screens can lead to problems with controlling geometric distortion, especially if keystone distortion is present due to a high projection angle.

When a gain screen is installed, it should be curved per SMPTE Recommended Practice RP95 "Installation of Gain Screens". The purpose of this curvature is primarily to have the highly reflective gain screen reflect more light to the seating area of the theatre and improve uniformity of screen luminance. Ideally, the curvature should be determined by ray tracing, although a curvature radius of (projection throw distance + distance between the screen and audience center) / 2 is often used. The screen may also be tilted to reflect maximum light toward the center of the audience. This curve is usually "milder" than a deeply curved screen, and geometric distortion is less of a factor.


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 08-14-2002 06:41 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John: No, it was a he.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-14-2002 07:06 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh well, back to detective school. Susan, the editor I've talked to, would have probably been of the same opinion.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-15-2002 06:17 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, thanks for the link to D-150. I believe the UA 150 in Syossett NY probably still had the Curvulon attachment because I've seen lots of standard 35mm scope, flat and 70mm there and as I mentioned, maybe it was because I always sat in a slightly down center seat, the image had very little geometric distortion.

How times have changed: that there actually was a time when the idea of curtains in a theatre was so commensurate with quality presentation that if a theatre for one reason or another could not have a curtain, they would go so far as to put a slide of a curtain up on the screen instead. Unfortunately the slide projector idea stuck, only now it projects obnoxious screen ads.

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 08-15-2002 10:07 AM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know the Egyptian in Hollywood (a D-150 house) projected all their 70mm films on the full width screen (well, the full frame ones anyway) but all their 35mm scope and flat films were greatly reduced in size. The Cinerama Dome used to be the same way, but since they remodeled, 35mm now covers most of the full sized screen.

I really haven't figured out the lack of curtain use today. I understand theatres are getting extra revenue from whatever source they can, but in Los Angeles, anyway, the Landmark Thetares don't even project slides on the screen, yet have stopped using the curtains that they already have. Do they really save that much money from opening and closing? Mann theatres in LA is still the only chain that does it right. They not only use curtains, but still close them between previews and the main attraction.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 08-15-2002 11:11 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Do the curtain-equipped Edwards theaters in SoCal still use the curtains like they used to?

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-16-2002 11:52 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, said: >I really haven't figured out the lack of curtain use today.<> (they) have stopped using the curtains that they already have. Do they really save that much money from opening and closing? Mann theatres in LA is still the only chain that does it right. They not only use curtains, but still close them between previews and the main attraction.<

Yes, Paul, that is the mystery. In the days of single screens, even the local neighborhood sub-runs adhered to the fairly standardized protocol of curtains opening the show, closing after the attractions/shorts and opening for the main feature -- this with the appropriate use of dimming curtain warmers. With the advent of the Dark Era of multiplexing, it probably did become an economic issue -- curtain motors, curtain tracks and the curtains themselves did add a substantial cost factor when an exhibitor decided chop up a single screen into 10. And let's face it, in the early chop jobs, where a single screen, usually with attractive interior design, was tortured into a multitude of small, misshapen "theatres," interior design and aesthetics was not what anyone was terribly concerned about -- they were lucky if they could find a place to put the screen (up over the exit doors? guess that will have to do), let alone outfit each room with pleasing lighting and curtains.

So it just became accepted that in these abominations of presentation and good taste, there just wouldn't be any curtains -- you would be lucky if the seats actually faced the screen and not some imaginary position where the original screen was located....like a person who's lost a leg but still feels an itch where his foot used to be.

As theatres began being built from scratch as multiplexes, the classic theatre styles of the old single screen were abandoned for a much more utilitarian approach. Why spend money on "style" when 90% of the time that patron is sitting in the room, the lights are turned off? The idea of a curtain to cover the "naked screen" as they used to call it (a major no-no in the golden era of the movie palaces) seemed "extravagant" in a design that heavily focused on huge, gleaming chrome and glass concession malls and very little on the smallish rooms beyond them down the hall. Any attractive design consideration was going to be saved for the concession area, not the cinemas. And in fairness to the exhibitor, adding a curtain, track, motors and controls, depending on the size screen, can add a nice chunk of change to the cost of each room. Multiply that times the number of screens in a new complex and you are talking about a substantial savings for something no one cares about any more. The exhibitor is much more inclined to purchase more concessions equipment or trailer monitors for his lobby than spend money on screen curtains. In today's exhibition climate, the value of aesthetics is about the par equivalent of that of a warthog.


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