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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » emulsionside??? (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: emulsionside???
Michael West
Film Handler

Posts: 67
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 09-03-2002 11:47 PM      Profile for Michael West   Author's Homepage   Email Michael West   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i sometimes moisten the tips of my fingers and gently touch an area without an image to determine the emulsion side - on film without a soundtrack.
i use cotton gloves - i can find splices and film damage quicker and my hands are better protected.
brad said:
"Cotton gloves are a crutch for people who have poor film handling practices so they do not destroy the film."
brad, i think you have hurt my feelings.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 09-04-2002 02:50 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On the gloves issue I agree totally with Manny - latex ones are preferable to cotton in every conceivable way. They do not become saturated with perspiration which then finds its way onto the film. Being thinner, it is easier to feel for defects on the film edges while winding. They don't shed fabric particles, and they are less likely to transfer dirt back onto the film surface when overused.

I know that some people have a latex allergy issue (and I've often thought this must have the potential to cause serious problems with another... ahem... 'activity' which can involve the use of latex devices, but the less said about that the better!), but for the vast majority of people who don't, I'd say that they were a far better option than cotton ones. I really don't know why they aren't used more extensively by archivists.

And as for Brad's belief that anyone who feels the need for gloves at all is an incompetent film handler, I think we just have to live with the fact that some people have a higher level of manual dexterity than others. I would tell projectionists I was responsible for that it is a matter of personal choice, the bottom line being that there must be no fingerprints on the films. I now take a similar line with trainee archivists, though I do insist on gloves being used for certain types of element (e.g. tinted and toned elements - some of the dyes are irritant and/or toxic, and can shed during examination).

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Brad Haven
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: fremantle, West Australia
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 09-04-2002 03:21 AM      Profile for Brad Haven   Email Brad Haven   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the side of the emulsion remains constant, why do we need to test which side is the emulsion?, if holding the film head out and soundtrack on the left you are looking at the emulsion side.
I have a shocking memory, but this doesn't seem too hard to remember!

On the issue of gloves, i wear a glove on my left hand for old/dirty print's and no gloves on new print's.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 09-04-2002 07:07 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For 35mm release prints, standard SMPTE 194 specifies: "The photographic emulsion shall be on the side of the film which faces away from the projector lens". In other words, if you view the film with the image upright and the analog soundtrack to the left, the emulsion side is toward you. The image "reads" correctly from the emulsion side.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Patrick de Groot
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 161
From: Sprang-Capelle, Netherlands
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 09-04-2002 07:38 AM      Profile for Patrick de Groot   Email Patrick de Groot   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks all. The methods I use now are
-soundtrack left & picture ok (or 'head' up and 'tail' down)--> emulsion side towards you
-Breathing on the film also shows the base side clearly

Btw is there a preferable way to winding the film(emulsion in or outside)? A controversial topic I think...


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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 09-04-2002 08:01 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It depends what you're using the film for. IHMO a release print should be wound base out as in most circumstances this gives better protection to the emulsion (which is more vulnerable to scratching). However there may be issues with some platter or tower configurations which make this a bad idea. For archival elements emulsion out is almost always preferable, because base shrinkage is likely to deform the emulsion and/or subbing layer more if it is oriented outwards.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 09-04-2002 09:00 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
SMPTE Recommended Practice RP39 specified an emulsion-in winding orientation for optimum performance during projection. Work done by Kodak with 35mm TRIACETATE prints showed better focus stability if the winding orientation was always emulsion-in: "Effect of Winding on the Projection Performance of 35mm Motion-Picture Film", by Paul H. Preo and Eric A. Yavitz, SMPTE Journal, June 1965, 74:521-525

This work has not been redone for polyester print film, and the preferred winding orientation of today's polyester prints seems to depend mostly upon the curl of the film, which is affected by the drying of the film after processing and the relative humidity of the projection room. Use the winding orientation that gives the best performance for platter transport and focus stability on your equipment.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 09-04-2002 12:31 PM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Figure 11 of Film Notes Issue #H-50-2 Film Handling.

Please note that not all rewind/inspection benches have variable speed motors. Some are just On/Off. Old prints with edge damage can slice a finger open. Gloves work much better (and safer) in these situations.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 09-04-2002 01:21 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you prefer to wear film handlers' gloves, that's fine. As you note, they protect your hands, as well as the film. The bottom line is that you should handle the film without putting fingerprints on it or getting it dirty. I have seen film handlers using gloves that were black with dirt.

True story: A few years ago, I was visiting a newly opened 16-plex theatre during a SMPTE-sponsored behind-the-scenes "open house" tour. I observed one of the newbie operators at the rewind bench, splicing together trailers to go onto the platter. He was wearing thick, fuzzy woolen winter gloves on both hands. When I asked why, he said he was told he must wear gloves when handling film.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 09-04-2002 06:01 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can always find the emulsion side by using a scribe of some sort to scratch a mark either on an edge or on the leader, somewhere where it will have no consequence.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-05-2002 03:54 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ooooh, Steve, that's a DANGEROUS thing to tell the guy who is wearing winter gloves....you never know what "somewhere where it will have no consequence" will mean to that guy!

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 09-05-2002 04:59 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know how to handle film without gloves but I prefer using them because I know I'm not perfect and that mistakes can happen. That's not an admission of incompetence; lots of times projectionists are asked to do things faster than they'd like. This creates more opportunities for mistakes to happen. With gloves, getting fingerprints on the film is one less thing I have to worry about.

My name is Manny and I prefer wearing gloves.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-06-2002 01:55 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Manny,

I was referring to John P.'s guy who was told to wear gloves while handling the film and wound up wearing woolen winter gloves. Obviously he mightn't be the one you want to have a go at a with a razor as a way of finding the emulsion.

I too wear gloves -- I have both cotton and latex, depending on the task. But I am not fanatical about it. I tend to use a glove on one hand, with the other free to do the tasks that require more dexterity.

I found that gloves can become a danger in (or rather on) the wrong hands. I see guys using them as a kind of built in cleaning rag attached to their hands. I think this is a worse practice than accidently getting some skin oil on the print. I'd rather tell them to fore-go gloves and just be sure to handle the film only by the edges and avoid touching it in the picture or sound area. After all, the amount of oil that the skin can excrete and pass onto the film emulsion isn't in the kind of quantity that can't be easily removed with any standard film cleaning solution. Better that than some goon grabbing the film with a cotton glove and running the film through it as it rewinds, collecting dirt and abrasive particles and pressing them against the moving film.

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Thomas Hauerslev
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 09-06-2002 04:51 AM      Profile for Thomas Hauerslev   Author's Homepage   Email Thomas Hauerslev   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Films are subtitled on emulsion side.

------------------
------------------

Cheers, Thomas
www.in70mm.com
www.dp70.com
www.70mm.dk

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 09-06-2002 08:03 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thomas wrote: "Films are subtitled on emulsion side."

Good point. Both laser and chemical-etch subtitles remove the entire emulsion in the lettered area --- usually very easy to see.

Subtitles that were printed into the image (e.g., bipack printing) aren't as obvious, but of course will "read correctly" with the emulsion side toward you.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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