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Author Topic: Beware of dts problems with "The Hulk" Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 06-21-2003 10:15 PM                        Wouldn't a timecode problem manifest itself across all prints? Ours is tracking perfectly. We did have that blip last week, but it went away after we reversed our disks. DTS may have a problem in the duplication process that would certainly need fixing... but otherwise, it seems some of these comments are a little on the harsh side. Other than that one blip, my 6D has performed flawlessly.  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-21-2003 11:35 PM                        Our "Hulk" is fine too. (well, the print and disks are. Not so sure about the movie yet.)  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 06-22-2003 12:05 AM                        I recieved my replacement discs for one print and discs for a print that I didn't get discs for in the first place. Both sets of discs work fine, but I have one reel four that blinks like a turn signal. Luckily it only goes out for three seconds, comes back on briefly and then goes back out. There's no reason I should have to adjust the reader. I don't adjust the analog sound head on a per print basis. Nor do I have to adjust my Dolby Digital readers. quote: Wouldn't a timecode problem manifest itself across all prints? It could be a problem with only one or two negatives and not all of them.  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 06-22-2003 12:15 AM                     I ran The Hulk today....the DTS disks and print were OK. The movie is a dog.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 06-22-2003 01:09 AM                        How many prints were made of this movie? Could this be the result of way too many prints resulting in a rush job at the labs? We all know that when this happens the labs botch many many prints (awaiting a link from John Pytlak since the word "labs" is in my post ).  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 06-22-2003 07:16 AM                        I looked at two sets of discs in one location today and they were fine - at least according to the file copy test. However, the test is not very conclusive as different drives are mechanically and electronically more efficient in coping with bad CDs. It would be best to have a computer with the "original" TEAC 32x drives (I wouldn`t be too surprised if Brad actually has them in his PC). Some CD-ROM drives can be made to give an error warning (C2) when they encounter problems. You also need a program which can actually request and display the C2 error messages (I have one, but it is only available in German, hahaha). Anyway, we had badly flashing timecode in some of the reels too, indicating the print problem. The prints are under observation, but since (I am told) the movie sucks enormously, we won`t have most of them for very long...  |  IP: Logged Tim Turner Film Handler Posts: 87 From: Chula Vista, CA, USA Registered: Jan 2002 posted 06-22-2003 01:08 PM                     Luckily where I am, we'll be playing The Hulk in Dolby Digital for at least several more weeks. But DTS is usually very quick to replace DTS CDs when they know of problems.  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 06-22-2003 01:46 PM                        Why can't a reader be designed to self-adjust (within limits) and optimize its alignment for each print?  |  IP: Logged Mike Olpin Chop Chop! Posts: 1852 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Jan 2002 posted 06-22-2003 05:28 PM                     I'm scared for DTS. Recently i was talking sound formats with some co-workers. One of them said something like "wouldnt it be nice if we had dolby on every screen?" I love the DTS format. It absolutely blows the shorts of any other digital format I have heared. I would hate to see such a great format vanish becuaseof bad prints, disks, and analog processors that dont get along well with DTS (AHEM USL JS-200). Out of all the formatts you'd think this one would be the most reliable. How hard is it to print what is basicly a bar-code onto film? I think it should be much easier than printing complex digital data between sprokets. But that is clearly not the case. Everyone at DTS should be alarmed with the number of bad prints being made. Hmmm... this makes me wonder... I'm starting a new topic with another DTS related question.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 06-22-2003 07:01 PM                        quote: Out of all the formats you'd think this one would be the most reliable. Indeed. In fact it should be VERY robust. And usually it is. quote: How hard is it to print what is basicly a bar-code onto film? It's rocket science. quote: I think it should be much easier than printing complex digital data between sprokets. But that is clearly not the case. Perhaps the method of printing it could be improved? I do not know how this is done or how they get the timecode onto a dupe master, but maybe they way they do things could be improved. I admit, I am at a loss to figure out how the timecode could be misprinted.  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 06-22-2003 07:22 PM                        Joe & Mike and everyone else, just adjust the reader to work with each print and quit whining.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-22-2003 08:32 PM                     All three digital tracks and the optical track are on one single negative recorded usually at once in the same camera usually a nuoptic modified westrex  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 06-22-2003 08:51 PM                     David, I agree. But when you have a bunch of no-brainers running the equipment, equipping them with a screwdiver is a complete disaster. That seems to be "Par" in today's projection booths.  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 06-22-2003 09:27 PM                        Paul, I was kidding. I can't imagine most booths allowing everyone to run around with screwdrivers making adjustments to digital readers. A recipe for disaster, and shouldn't be necessary in the first place. I still don't understand why a reader couldn't be designed that automatically optimizes its alignment to each print (within limits). If $50 VCRs can have digital auto-tracking, why can't megabuck cinema digital sound readers accommodate minor printing variations better? Yes I realize they're not the same from an implementation standpoint, but the concept is the same and certainly technologically doable.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 06-22-2003 11:51 PM                     Dave, asks: "Why can't a reader be designed to self-adjust (within limits) and optimize its alignment for each print?" I think the answers are: #1: Doing so would add additional complexity. Part of the beauty of the DTS reader is its simplicity, and it is really very simple. Simple means reliable, and reliability is critical to this industry. #2: It should never be necessary. Prints with timecode in the wrong place should happen so rarely that it should basically be a "can't happen" scenario. #3: At this point, designing and deploying a new reader would take serious effort, and would significantly complicated the DTS product line. I am prettty skeptical it is worth the effort. Time to market would be significant, too. I don't think it was a problem at the get-go. (By the way, the timecode reader is not a megabuck reader. Part of DTS's advantage is how cheap it is, compared to the other digital systems. Timecode reader sells for USD$500.) It certainly appears that the "can't happen" scenario is happening, though. It's hard to say why, and anecdotal evidence can be a dangerous thing (but also a valuable tool -- double edged sword). Not everyone who has suggested they're seeing these problems in this thread has explicitly indicated that they are seeing a flashing light on the timecode reader -- that is a critical symptom that needs to be seen for the problem to be either in the timecode reader or on the print. It's also possible that we're seeing a misaligned timecode reader (?) or a gain issue, perhaps due to aging LEDs or dirt, etc. I'm sure Karen will provide information on checking those things. If there's really any significant incidence of misprinted timecode on release prints, then obviously the bad reels need to be checked out and some investigation done in terms of lab QC. Presumably Karen is all over this and will followup with TES (TDC/TRPM as appropriate)... Could people who post further problems clarify whether they are seeing flashing timecode reader lights, and how frequently, and whether the problem has been seen with multiple prints on said reader? I have a technical question, if anyone has the answers; what's the width of the timecode reader aperture on the DTS timecode reader, how much misalignment is acceptable, and is there any filtering to allow it to read timecode if the aperture is also picking up the soundtrack or the image? --jhawk  |  IP: Logged

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