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Author Topic: Threading Projectors- top/bottom or bottom/top (revisited) Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-16-2003 03:27 AM                        As do I. That seems to be the most logical way since it is the intermittent relationship to the frame line that determines where everything else will fall. But how can this be since the ONLY way to thread now is bottom to top, correct? I assume you are all talking about platter operation, and here bottom to top may have advantages I don't see immediately. But in the case of R-T-R, threading from the intermittent/framing window, as Gordon, Scott and William all point out, beats both top/bottom and bottom/top. It gets me perfect loops every time and nothing ever touches the floor. What more do you want? If I have a print with excessive lab gack ahead of frame lines, I either add a foot of extra visible frame line junk at the very head and thread there, or even faster, just run it through the frame counter and mark half a dozen framelines at the very end of the leader. Nothing ever touches the floor. This idea that because one guy finds advantages in one method, that makes every other method incorrect, is bull. Seems like all of a sudden you are making it out that threading bottom/top is akin to curing a brain tumor with delicate surgical instruments and threading top/bottom has become like drilling into the skull with a 3/4in power drill to get the tumor. This is only threading, guys....if it can be done so that the film gets threaded properly and isn't damaged in the process, what's the difference in how someone acheives it? And as for efficiency, what is "not efficient" to one operator may be perfectly efficient to another, even if only because he finds it more comfortable. It's like telling a lefty that it's inefficient to write with his left hand because you write with your right....unless of course you are the Threading Nazi. Seems to me that in the last 60 or 70 years of threading projectors, that if SOMEone....ANYone of the hundreds of thousands of projectionists and projector manufacturers would have discovered that threading bottom/top was the incredibly more superior way to do it, it would have somehow been discovered before the 21st century and worked its way into the craft....if indeed it made that much of a difference, that is. Besides, I think it is highly commendable that Stephen W. (welcome Steve), has gone to some extraordinary means to achieve a laudable end. And he's achieved that end quite well, albeit unconventional. I give him A for at the very least his ingenuity and A+ for desire to protect the print and do film right. Let's not piss on it right out of the starting gate, eh?  |  IP: Logged Chris Byrne Expert Film Handler Posts: 102 From: Kirwan, Australia Registered: Jan 2003 posted 12-16-2003 04:33 AM                     I have tried to convert our whole booth to the bottom / top method, because I believe it has strong merits. I only switched a few months back, however find it a lot easier and quicker to lace backwards (top to bottom.) A trainee who had laced both ways was sold on the bottom to top method, as he found loops easier to size and was more aware of lacing over the last roller before the cowling. I think it comes down to how open you are to change. Just before this we swapped to emulsion out (soundtrack up) on platter after 12 years of lacing base out. The most important thing is that the whole team changes, or any experimentation will not have any consistency for you to draw comparisons.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-16-2003 06:47 AM                        my take on this is that bottom-up is a simple and effective means of keeping the leader off the floor in a platter booth. i don't think it has any advantage when it comes to framing right or loop sizes. either method, if done right and checked afterwards, is equally good as far as that is concerned. i don't make others thread bottom-up. we have clothespins by each projector and atop each platter tree, for those who want to do that. i think the most intuitive way to teach threading is to start at the intermittent and work down, showing how the offset of the soundtrack and proper tension on the sound drum etc. determine the ideal loop sizes. it's just easier to understand how everything is interrelated that way. once those principles are in place, any other method will be pretty easy to learn. that's just my feeling. go with whatever works for you, unless it's wrong. carl  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-16-2003 09:27 AM                        Paul's point about operator safety with a remote-controlled or automation-controlled projectors is a good one. If the film break detector below the soundhead is the only thing telling the system that the projector is not ready to "go", be sure to find a way to prevent remote/automatic start while your fingers are still near the sprockets.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Woodward Film Handler Posts: 4 From: North Yarmouth, Maine USA Registered: Dec 2003 posted 12-16-2003 09:49 AM                     Thank you Frank and Carl for making the true point of this post. I am glad it has generated so much interest as it shows you all do take the job seriously. I can appreciate both views on the subject. What I do hate, and I mean hate, is those who think that no matter what, their way is the only way and feel that shoving it down someone's throat is the only way to go. I have worked in only platter booths. I was taught by an old-timer who really cared about presentation. A lot of chains don't look at the heart of their business and that IS projection. All other aspects of theater rely on a quality show to draw the customers. Gimmicks and all aside, quality in the booth is paramount. The issue of any film touching a dirty floor or being stepped on while trying to thread a unit is very important. What many people ignore is that the leader is meant to be expendable and as not part of the actual "film" being shown, it is sacrificial. On the other hand, the tailend of the film hitting the floor and dragging across rough or dirty surfaces does cause direct damage to viewable product. No one has addressed this issue seriously to this point. For all the arguments pro and con on direction of thread, still no "cure" for the tailend. That is why I came up with the film trough idea. I put it together and the simplicity of it is astounding. Brad thinks that it has to get just as dirty as the floor but I don't know how it could unless your booth rains debris over everything. You don't step in the trough so no foot dirt. It doesn't sit directly below the projector so it doesn't catch drips or grunge from the machines. Being clear clean vinyl, it wipes down easily and the white of it makes "any" dirt stand out and beg cleaning. It is a very visible barrier to remind all in the booth that film crosses low in a usual dark area. I know of many who while working around a machine that was running accidentally connecting with the lower return of film, luckily not tripping it out and shutting down the show. Any thing we do should be done in the booth to make sure whoever is running the equipment is paying attention to the job. I don't care if you find top to bottom or bottom to top better or not, but whatever you choose to do- do it well. Take pride in your job reflecting your personal pride and work ethic. For those of you who want to "dictate" that your chosen method is better then others and refuse to be openminded, I think the old EGO has gotten the best of you. If my equipment were more prone to better threading from bottom up I would most likely do it. But with Christie platters and Century head with Century tension sound-heads and old and clunky fail-safes, the bottom up method just opens too many gates for error especially in a company that feels "anyone" can run a projector and doesn't have projectionists but has "assistant managers" and even relies on non-mechanical people to operate "very mechanical" equipment. I offer to you all a simple cheap solution to "film touching the floor" by offering my film trough idea. It works pure and simple and that's good enough for me. Have fun all!  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-16-2003 09:57 AM                        The solution to the dirty tail problem is to add 15-20 (or more) feet of clear leader to the tail of the print. This way, only the clear leader touches the floor and the actual lab leader stays pristine. If your theatre is too cheap to buy new clear leader, you can soak old trailers in bleach (which removes the emulsion) and then rinse the film with a solution of water and a tiny bit of Photo-Flo (available at camera stores).  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-16-2003 10:09 AM                        Dilute hypochlorite laundry bleach (e.g. "Clorox") dissolves gelatin emulsion. Rinse in warm water. The "Photo Flo" helps prevent water spotting. Squeegee the film, and festoon (hang) it in a clean area to dry. What you have left is clear plastic film base. Use caution with any chemical. Use safety goggles and chemical-resistant gloves, and don't get any bleach on/in your skin, eyes, or clothing. Use in a well-ventilated area, outdoors if possible. Dispose of the used bleach solution properly. Protein-dissolving enzymes (similar to meat tenderizer or contact lens enzyme cleaner) also can be used to dissolve and remove gelatin emulsions. Since they "chew" away at the emulsion layers slowly, you can actually remove one emulsion layer at a time by varying the time the enzyme is allowed to work.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 12-16-2003 11:09 AM                     Stephen, Please use paragraphs when you post. Making one paragraph lengthy posts is annoying to read. As Scott addressed earlier, adding extra tail leader is the key to preventing the end of the credits from being damaged. You have only been around for a week or two here, but these things have been discussed to death here, so don't expect a full blown answer from everyone on such an old topic. May I recommend before you continue to put your foot in your mouth that you read the archives and do searches on things before you post. There are many things in your post that are ridiculous. "Old timers who really care about presentation" usually is someone who is dead set in HIS ways and forces that down YOUR throat. The people here, including myself, have for the most part started working the booth with those type of practices, and have tried alternative ways and found them to be the superior method for running a professional booth. Keep that in mind before you make another ignorant remark like insinuating that these guys do not have the better procedure just because it is different than what you were taught and are blindly following. Until you have fully tried both (and I don't mean for a few days), you are the one who is being one-sided. Once you try bottom up though, you will change, as I have yet to find someone who hasn't. (Note this does not necessarily apply to reel to reel operation, as frequently the easiest method is to start at the gate.) "The leader is expendable and since it is not part of the actual film being shown is sacrificial." You've got a lot to learn, and this has been explained before on these forums. The short, short answer is that if your leader is dirty, that dirt winds on the next layer of film on the platter, then on the next show that transferred dirt transferrs to the next layer of film, and so forth and so on. This is why without my even visiting your theater I know with that kind of attitude that the first piece of film on a platter roll that hits the screen does not look absolutely flawless, like it should. "The film trough being clear clean vinyl wipes down easily and the white of it makes "any" dirt stand out and beg cleaning." I've got news for you, it may LOOK clean, but it isn't unless you're wiping it down every day. A speck of dirt that is undetectable to you looking down at that trough WILL project to the screen. Remember, the images on that film that are less than an inch in size frequently are magnified to 30, 40, 50 (or more) feet on the screen! "For those of you who want to "dictate" that your chosen method is better then others and refuse to be openminded, I think the old EGO has gotten the best of you." You're new to projection, it's obvious. In time you will see that these guys may have a little bit of an ego, but they deserve it. Your ego with this invention-of-the-century known as the film trough is nothing special at all. If you want to improve your presentation, get yourself some kind of online film cleaner. Even the worst ones will do a far better job of keeping the film clean than your trough. "If my equipment were more prone to better threading from bottom up I would most likely do it." Oh please! You have probably the easiest equipment out there for bottom up threading! You're going to make a great old-timer who is dead set in his ways. I know your heart is in the right place, but you really need to start looking back at the older posts here for answers and full discussions to these simple issues before you continue to post.  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-16-2003 12:10 PM                     quote: BTW, the Cinemaccanica is a SNAP to thread bottom/top. Really? Threading the V8 bottom-up makes me want to cry sometimes. The lower holdback sprocket's pad roller only opens about 1", making it hard to even get the film past the 70mm sprockets onto the 35. (I almost want to remove that stupid piece that prevents it from opening further.) I've tried threading bottom-up many times, but my leader still touches the floor no matter what I do. I know, I'm doing something wrong and I'll probably figure it out eventually, but when I thread as Gordon does, (Intermittent up, then intermittent down) the leader doesn't hit the floor as much as the bottom-up method. I know, I know, "Thomas you are doing something wrong if this is the case..." A couple of projectors set up by lazy techs who added a digital reader and ran the wires so that they're between the projector and the port window wall, causing you to HAVE to thread both the upper and lower magazine rollers when threading the platter makes the leader hit the floor anyway. So which way you thread the projector would be irrelevant. Still, I gotta beat the "pull all the leader onto the floor" habit out of the doofus that insists he was shown by a Union guy to do it that way so it MUST be right. =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-16-2003 05:21 PM                        with the assumption that the trough is rigorously kept clean, it seems to me that its ability to protect the tail end from the floor is a distinct advantage. surely, if dirt migrates from the leader to the first trailer, it can do so in reverse from the tail end as well, if maybe not quite as efficiently because a given length of film doesn't have as many "wraps" at the tail end, and nothing follows it through the projector. ensuring sufficient tail leader is good of course, and should be done regardless. but why on earth go to trouble of bleaching it? so what if it's from a kangaroo jack trailer? nobody's going to see it. and if the bleach is not properly washed off, the film will be gummy, sticking to itself and attracting dirt. carl  |  IP: Logged Bryan Fournier Film Handler Posts: 61 From: Greensboro, NC Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-16-2003 07:36 PM                     Both arguments seem to have valid points. Maybe in a larger theatre say 10+ screens threading bottom up saves a few seconds off thread up time and is more efficient (particularly with Christie projectors). In a smaller theatre (less than four screens) maybe there is no distinct advantage. Your not in such a rush so you can take the time to ensure the film is seated properly on all the rollers and loops are of correct size. As long as film/leader is off the floor (we all seem to be in agreement about that one) then why call one method inferior. The safety issue is a valid point when remote starting location are involved.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-16-2003 10:07 PM                     It doesn't seem plausible that the film trough could ever be clean; it sits in the open atmosphere. Could someone please explain how the premise has some legitimacy? Sure, if the film trough is clean, the method is OK (well, ignoring the microscratches you'd necessarily get by setting the film-in-trough instead of floating in the air), but the "if" seems impossibly large. What am I missing? --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-16-2003 10:11 PM                     I guess it would be as clean as the exposed empty top platter deck would be  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-16-2003 10:41 PM                        quote: ...but why on earth go to trouble of bleaching it? so what if it's from a kangaroo jack trailer? nobody's going to see it. and if the bleach is not properly washed off, the film will be gummy, sticking to itself and attracting dirt. Some people prefer to use either clear or opaque leader, rather than old trailers with pictures and soundtrack on them. I agree with you that they will never be seen or heard anyway if you've made up and cued the print properly. The bleaching idea was brought up because some people have difficulty getting their management to buy "real" clear leader.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-17-2003 12:00 AM                     I use bleached film for leader and many other things. Besides the uses others have mentioned, I use it to replace heads and tails from reels of film that have been lost by other people. It's easy to take a Sharpie and write the title and ID of the reel. "Title" - R1 - H It's also good for checking the sizes of your loops. Splice a piece of clear bleached film in between your framing leader and the black leader before the start of the program. Thread up normally and double check to make sure your loops are right. Run the film down by hand until there is nothing but clear film in the projector. Now, take a Sharpie marker and carefully reach into the aperture from the front and mark the film with a star. Mark an "X on the film on the sound drum directly over the exciter lamp/LED. If you have any digital penthouses, mark "X" next to the scanning points of those units too. The next time you thread and you want to check to see if your loops are correct all you have to do is run the film down until the star is in the picture aperture again. If all of your "X" marks are in the right places you know that you have threaded the projector EXACTLY the same as before. It makes a good training aid if you so desire. I also use it as an aid to vary my sound advance. If I'm the only one watching the movie during a pre-screening I will thread the projector "early" so that the lip-sync is correct for my seating position. I sit in the last row of the balcony. The speakers are 110 feet from that position, leaving a 0.1 second delay in the sound if the projector is threaded "dead-nuts-on". I'll thread the projector 2 or 3 sprocket holes "early" to compensate. An extra mark for the "early" setting and a one for "dead-nuts". PS: I'm using a 5-Star sound head. The spring tension of the idler roller gives me slack to adjust the film. As to threading "Up" or "Down". Usually, I thread like Gordon and start in the gate. After that, as long as the film doesn't get on the floor it doesn't matter to me as long as the projector is threaded right. Sometimes if I'm in the mood, I'll experiment one way or another. Oh... One last thing in reference to one way of threading being faster than another: I don't care how fast or slow my workers thread as long as it's done RIGHT! If the extra nine seconds you save in threading is so critical then you aren't managing your time right! Even in a 20-plex with 10 minutes between shows, if you don't slack off and you watch your show schedule you should have plenty of time to thread at your own pace and still have time left over! Fast threading contests are for amateurs!  |  IP: Logged

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