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This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5
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Topic: Threading Projectors- top/bottom or bottom/top (revisited)
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Stephen Woodward
Film Handler
Posts: 4
From: North Yarmouth, Maine USA
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 12-18-2003 01:22 AM
Hi again. Just the ingnorant newbie here. How could I dare broach this topic again (that has been discussed so much), well with almost 50 posts on it, seems to be of some interest to a few of us.
I have not tried to shove any idea down anyone's throat. I made a personal observation and comment about my experience. I may not be as wise and all knowing as some of you, but I too like to try new things. If they work, great! If they don't, then back to the old way that did work. Am I wrong in this statement?
I am sorry I used a large paragraph, just easy when you have a thought train and go with it. Being creative is a curse. I will address the points that were raised about my short-comings.
First, if I add extra stock to the tail of the factory film and still try and cue my atuomation to close the zipper at the end of the projected pictures and not the clear and countdown and other garbage, then I have to place my cue at the right spot to do that. If I do the automation, it times out for just so many seconds and then shuts down (whether or not film is in the unit). A sudden shutdown with film still attached to a moving take-up platter is not a good idea.
I thank everyone who has replied to this post. I appreciate all your views and give each one equal value. I may not agree with all, just like you may not agree with me, but thank goodness we can have the freedom to politely disagree. I didn't realize I was chewing on my foot or I would have washed it better. Did I say the "old timers" were dictatorial, no. I tried to indicate that in the day before just anyone was thrown into a booth to thier own means, that those who chose the profession did on most part care about their work and doing it well. We have made great strides in inproving the art of projection and I'm sure some of it was contributed to by some of these fine fellows. I have worked under both types of "old timers" but I do not condemn all for a poor chosen few.
As far as labelling anything professional or not, I can not make the assumption of anyone's booth without personally visiting it and seeing for myself how they run it. I would never think of condemning another fellow projectionist just on my own slanted interpretation of what his opinions are. I never said that bottom up was inferior or wrong, but others do not offer the same reciprocation. I have tried the bottom up process in my booth and do not find it easier or better then what I already do. As you describe it, you load the platter to top roller then bottom roller at projector then back to return and then you go to the projector and set the tension to take-up and thread the fail-safe/automation and then from bottom up the sound head and drum and then up through the projector head having "perfect" loops before you even hit and "perfectly" place the frame of film in the aperature at the gate and close it and move up to your perfect loop at top before threading backwards through your DTS or SDDS (if you have it) and then all is set and ready to fire with no bumping or run down of excess leader. I admire your perfection. Now you tell me its so easy that the kid downstairs selling concessions can jump into the booth and run movies to perfection too. Where have I been sleeping? I always thought that you needed some mechanical skills to run and baby a good show through the odd and old and sometimes tired equipment that inhabits most booths.
Excuse me when I say leader is expendable but I thought it was. When it gets chewed up or worn out or dirty (from age), I usually throw it out and then start a clean and new one. They do get aged and chewed up fairly often. The issue of dirt is its own issue and not directly related to anything else. You knock the idea of a film trough because its new (as far as I know)and I don't suggest you go out and do it and I am not "selling" my idea because I just gave it out to anyone that might be interested. How else do new ideas get out if someone doesn't offer it? If the trough gets dirty (and you can't see it, what protects from the same dirt contaminating all the platter surfaces that are equally exposed. Did I indicate they can't be cleaned? Everything should be inspected and cleaned between each and every show not just once a night at close. I am so glad the assumption can be made in my suggesting a new idea, that my booth is automatically deemed dirty and my presantations are crap. I would never dare make that assumption of anyone's booth or operation. Its a slanderous statement I would never make.
When I thread, I lock in my top sprocket to hold the film from sagging, load my gate and frame, reset the top loop if needed, then proceed down setting the rest and I have perfect loops and dead-on tension and great speed and accuracy (but I still double check my loads and all paths before I start the film, as the old-timer taught me). I load my next show after the previous one drops and always have enough time to make sure the loads are right, I do not agree with last minute rushes to load cause that's where damage or brain wraps happen.
Under operation, the film never touches the trough and misses all surfaces by 1 or more inches, only 4-5 feet of leader lays at rest in the trough at lace up. I know my shows are good, no debris dancing on the screen, no scratches, in frame and in focus and I take pride in doing it well. Thank you for pointing out I must suck at it, because i don't happen to agree with you on a point.
I must be new to projection at only 7+ years doing it and being moved to head projectionist right off and keeping the equipment running smoothly and even showing the local tech how to free up a seized intermittent saving my company over $600 , at running projectors older then you unless you were born in 1930s and still without parts available, they run strong. The booth I'm in now is a lark compared to the other one I ran. I get mad at people being put to work running the equipment that haven't had decent training and do not care if the show is good or bad, just running on time. I guess I must suck at this job. And if I suck at this job, I hope many other of you suck too in the same way! If anyone would like a photo of the trough idea, I'll be glad to find some way to get it to you. Its not the greatest idea of the century, just an idea. If it was intended to boost my ego, wouldn't I be trying to sell it and make profit on it. No, I just offered it cause I cared, my mistake. Oh and by the way, I did read the FAQ and the very last paragraph in it was the most pertinent to this latest round, thank you for the education!
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-18-2003 02:03 AM
Thank you for using paragraphs, however it would really be appreciated if you would lose that PC-covered smart ass attitude. Just because you word insults politely doesn't mean that they are acceptable. (PC'eze actually makes them insulting, when otherwise they may not have been.) Speaking in PC talk wastes bandwidth and quite frankly is annoying. It makes me feel like I am in a NATO meeting. Ever hear of the phrase "he's doing a lot of talking but not saying anything?"
Again, many of your issues are with just not knowing. Have you ever watched a spinning platter stop as the projector stops at the end of a show? It doesn't matter what make or model platter you have, ALL of them can come gracefully to a stop on their own. That is a lousy excuse to not protect the end of your film with adding extra film at the tail. In fact, your real issue is that of your automation not being set up properly. Any good operator knows where to place the shutdown cue and I think it's safe to say that 99% of all automations are capable of closing the douser and letting the projector motor continue to run until the film tails out. You should probably ask your tech about this, but by all means post the kind of automation you have and you will probably be surprised as someone quickly tells you what is set up causing the projector motor to shut down at the last cue.
You say you have tried bottom up. Great, but how long did you really try? And why in the heck are you putting the film in the lower magazine roller? Look in the tips section under "Threading 101" if you want to see how it is properly done. The projector and platter may be different, but the procedure is the same regardless of equipment. I only question how long you tried, because I have trained tons of floor staff (usually from 16-19 years of age) and all of them picked it up almost immediately. The same goes for people who already know how to thread.
How much do you pay for leader? Oh no wait, you probably don't pay for it out of your pocket, do you? A quality strip of leader can cost $20. That adds up FAST when you consider how much money is spent in a chain of theaters and going through it unnecessarily is a disservice to your company. If you set up your projector magazine rollers properly and follow the threading procedure outlined here, leaders can last for YEARS without becoming crinkled or dirty. The attitude that leader automatically gets chewed up from age is ridiculous. That is the same thing as saying "film just gets that way" in reference to why after a few months of running why there is any scratch or speck of dirt on it. Film does not get that way. Projectionists cause the film to get that way. A big difference.
Finally, titles like "head projectionist" really doesn't mean squat these days. There are people who have been promoted straight off of the floor staff and turned into a "head projectionist" within a month, and some projectionists have been promoted to technician after running projectors for less than a year.
If you did indeed read the FAQ, you already know how to post a picture of your trough.
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Kevin Wale
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 167
From: Guymon, OK USA
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 12-18-2003 11:22 PM
The definition of excellence as I've always described it whenever there are people "under" me is: 'Doing the best with what you have.' It's when there is an attitude of, 'well everything else stinks so why would I worry about that.' that hacks me off so much.
quote:
Steve, when threading upwards you still bypass the projector when threading the platter. You just grab from the bottom, engage the takeup and go up, pulling from the payout as you go. No excess slack!
When you say engage the takeup, do you mean as if you'd taken up the tension or just flipping the switch as on a Strong platter?
Just some thoughts and questions on the subject...
I pull my leader back and instead of hooking with a clothespin, I just hook it with the bottom sprocket in the soundhead. This keeps the leader off the floor and then I thread top to bottom.
quote:
It's easy.
1. Thread the projector so that the loop sizes are "perfect" using any means it takes.
2. Turn the projector motor over by hand until the intermittent just finishes it's pulldown and stop right there. Do not continue to crank the motor further into the stopped position of the intermittent.
3. Look at where the frameline is on the holdback sprocket. Let's say as an example that it is at 11:00.
So there you have it. From this point forth, every time you go to thread that model of projector, turn the projector motor over by hand until the intermittent just finishes it's pulldown cycle. Then put the threading leader so that a frameline is at 11:00 on that last sprocket. You will achieve perfect loop sizes every time, without need to readjust.
I'm of course a dullard sometimes so I'll ask at the risk of laughed at...
I'm not really following what is happening in this description. Is there a diagram? I'm more an arual(as in hearing something to the visual) learner and sometimes instructions are hard for me to follow in print.
quote:
If I'm the only one watching the movie during a pre-screening I will thread the projector "early" so that the lip-sync is correct for my seating position. I sit in the last row of the balcony. The speakers are 110 feet from that position, leaving a 0.1 second delay in the sound if the projector is threaded "dead-nuts-on". I'll thread the projector 2 or 3 sprocket holes "early" to compensate. An extra mark for the "early" setting and a one for "dead-nuts".
PS: I'm using a 5-Star sound head. The spring tension of the idler roller gives me slack to adjust the film.
These comments really have me concerned about what I have been doing. Is the amount of tension on the film around the sound drum what you are varying to move the sync around or is it in the processor that you're doing that? I know you have to time the soundhead all up but I've not known of a way be able to change that sync by adjusting the way you thread(2 or 3 sprocket holes early). That certainly isn't an argument against anything, I'm just totally in the dark which really concerns me.
As to the trough thing... I can see both sides. It is exposed so it will get dirty, but like Gordan said... so is the platter deck. The biggest thing I see is that it would have the tendancy to scratch the film. But, if the leader is what hits it, it won't be scratching film.
On the lab tail thing I have spent many an hour thinking about how to keep that from hitting the floor when the film is over. I mean, to me even an added tail I still don't want to hit the floor because the dirt will still get wedged in there. The only thing I can ever think of is some kind of roller assembly or stand.
Anyway, I do really like this forum because there is noone around here that I can discuss things like this with so many knowledgable people(even where there are disagreements, it's easy to see where the key issues are and what is just simply not acceptable.) I am just not quite in a position to be able to confidantly know which side I agree with totally or not. Still much I have to learn.
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