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Author Topic: Boom mics in flat films Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-27-2003 01:57 PM                     Steve (as posted on RAMT)...try comparing 35-PA to 35-IQ...the Magenta stock is taken on the same camera but it has KS-1870 perforations. Also look at Schneider's CLT test film. Steve  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-28-2003 05:10 AM                        could it be that the hard mattes themselves are printed a little out of frame, but the image itself is perfectly framed (using 35-PA as reference)? my understanding is that the mattes are step-printed onto the internegs, where the matte is bipacked with the interpositive, which contacts the internegative stock. maybe some slippage of the matte occurs due to the extra thickness? i'm not familiar with step printers (or lab printing in general) so slap me if this is implausible. just because you see a boom mike doesn't necessarily mean your framing is off. that stuff happens sometimes. but if you see a matte on a green band, say, and it's not centered, you will then see any awkward-looking shot after that as confirmation of poor framing, and might even ignore a shot that looks off in the other direction, because of perceptional bias. maybe the whole film looks perfect compositionally but because the matte looked off, you "know" it's wrong. just a hypothesis. what percentage difference is there between 35-PA and mattes in the real world? this is the first i've heard of there being a difference, and i've never noticed it when i've framed with 35-PA and then looked at "letterboxed" green bands. what i have noticed is bad windowboxing on trailers. big fish is a recent example. i'll see that and want to tweak the lens in one direction or the other, but really it's just printed that way (yes, i looked at it on the bench). carl  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-28-2003 11:56 AM                        My understanding, and this is from what I remember of the SMPTE standard on spherical cropped wide screen (John P. can probably verify this), is that prints shouldn't be hard matted at 1.85 in the first place, but should only be cropped down to 1.66 if they are following the SMPTE standards. So even if the vertical framing was off slightly, it certainly wouldn't be that far off that mics could be seen, would it? Besides, don't they now keep mics and set gack all the way out to the TV safe area so they can easily make so-called "full screen" versions for DVD and VHS? Anyway, Carl's theory seems quite plausable, even probable: could it be that the hard mattes themselves are printed a little out of frame, but the image itself is perfectly framed (using 35-PA as reference)? . Again, the matte shouldn't be a tight 1.85 but only 1.66. So even if the hard matte were slightly off-center, mics and set junk shouldn't be anywhere near the 1.85 edge. Me thinks that projector was alot further off center than the projectionist assumed.  |  IP: Logged Josh Jones Redhat Posts: 1207 From: Plano, TX Registered: Apr 2000 posted 12-29-2003 02:43 AM                        My God you guys, give it a rest... JJ  |  IP: Logged Tom Wienholt Master Film Handler Posts: 371 From: Towson, MD, USA Registered: Dec 2002 posted 12-29-2003 10:57 AM                     How about making all prints in scope and just matting off the sides for flat.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-29-2003 11:01 AM                     Matted, open-frame, flat, scope -- doesn't matter: If you use 35PA your show will appear to be slightly out of frame. The other formats would not be affected if this was an issue with the matte.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-29-2003 11:11 AM                        Hmmm, Josh is uncharacteristically testy this morning.  |  IP: Logged Josh Jones Redhat Posts: 1207 From: Plano, TX Registered: Apr 2000 posted 12-29-2003 09:16 PM                        There are reasons we have a search function. All of the other forums I am on encourage search before posting. I just get bored over hearing the S.O.S. yah know what I mean? JJ  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-29-2003 09:35 PM                     Umm, Josh, this thread is attempting to actually answer the question of why this discrepancy exists. I don't think any previous threads have done that. Somebody's going to go measure 35PA, 35IQ, the Schneider film, and some trailers under a microscope and get back to us, right (per r.a.m.t.)? I don't have any 35IQ handy, nor a measuring microscope, but I could probably scare one up easily if no one else can. Edit: I do have a film scanner, so I guess that's good enough for this purpose. If no one else with proper tools pipes up, I guess I can measure 35PA and trailers with it (but not 35IQ or Schneider). --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-29-2003 10:18 PM                     Might be the same topic but it *does* seem to be going in a different direction. I suppose it could/should have been included as a continuation of one of the older threads...but, hey... Even so, you could just ignore the thread if it bugs you, right?  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-29-2003 11:37 PM                     Yah know I never have had an issue framing with 35PA (call it by its right name) for scope nor in fact in 90% of the 1.85:1 prints either  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-30-2003 12:54 AM                     I'll double-check the scope thing -- I have to go into one of the theatres tomorrow. Somehow, I recall flat AND scope pictures both being out-of-frame if 35PA was used to centre the intermittent. I will report my findings here. Stay tuned.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 12-30-2003 03:06 AM                     I'll try and scan a few frames of 35PA and a few trailers over the next couple of days in extra-high resolution and post them for those who want to analyze it.  |  IP: Logged Gary Crawford Expert Film Handler Posts: 200 From: Neptune NJ USA Registered: Nov 2003 posted 12-30-2003 02:17 PM                     I've used Brad's idea of using a letterbox flat trailer turned into a loop to center my image. I also have some dailies "please focus" loops that have targets and lines and all kinds of test images on them, similar to the target loops you mention. I have to do this every time we go from flat to scope and back, including a minor re-aiming of the machines (hey, we're a 1925 house) so when I hit with a new show everything is in frame, in focus, etc. Since the minor miracle of scope trailers (wish we had them back in the old days) we never have a format change during a run.  |  IP: Logged David Whitbeck Film Handler Posts: 70 From: Tempe, AZ Registered: Jun 2001 posted 12-30-2003 08:28 PM                     This whole thread reminds me of Bring It On, the very beginning where she comes up from her cheer and she's supposed to be naked but if you framed it wrong you could see that she was wearing a towel... Just reminded me of that.  |  IP: Logged

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