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Author Topic: Boom mics in flat films John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-31-2003 10:07 AM                        Standard SMPTE 195 specifies the projectable image area of 35mm prints. The horizontal centerline of the "intended image area" is defined as exactly between two perforations (Dimension J=K, "nominally equal"). Secondarily, the top and bottom of the image should be approximately the same distance above/below the top and bottom perf of the frame (Dimension F=H, "within 0.012 inches, within 0.30 millimeters"). The SMPTE 35-PA test film is specified by SMPTE Recommended Practice RP 40, which says: quote: 4.10 Location on film and tolerances The center of the test image shall be within ± 0.001 in (0.03 mm) of the center of the projectable image area specified in ANSI/SMPTE 195. All projectable image area lines shall be within ± 0.002 in (0.05 mm) of the nominal dimensions shown on the test image. In other words, the horizontal centerline of any 35mm frame AND of the SMPTE 35-PA test film should be exactly between two perforations, within ± 0.001 inches (0.03 mm). IF the SMPTE standards are being followed, framing using SMPTE 35-PA should provide the proper framing of any print.  |  IP: Logged John A. Parker Jr. Film Handler Posts: 21 From: Brevard, N.C., USA Registered: May 2003 posted 01-03-2004 07:47 PM                     Ok, this is easy if you let it be. Just frame "this preview has been approved by" well you know the rest, dead in the center of the screen. It works for me every time and it's easy as it is the first thing that comes up on the screen. Have fun John A. Parker Jr.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-03-2004 11:24 PM                     Oh, another choice would be for us to take a page from Steve K.'s book, and bipack some RP40 with some trailer green and see what we get. Might be fun . --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Aaron Garman Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1470 From: Toledo, OH USA Registered: Mar 2003 posted 01-03-2004 11:50 PM                     That sounds nice, but thanks to our company for not letting us keep the green screens. Either way, I don't usually have trouble framing. Sure, I misframe at starts every so often (or on poorly setup projectors) but I make sure framing is perfect for the film. It takes trial and error sometimes, but I usually get it perfect. For flat films, a good trick to get it right is when there is a trailer that is letterboxed on the preshow. Just center that and you're usually in business for the feature. Of course, some films just have tight framing and you sometimes have to make a compromise. AJG  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 06-07-2004 07:28 PM                     Boy, it's been a while. I went and measured some green band, I will measure some RP40 next. I took the green band from a flat trailer for Cold Mountain, printed at Deluxe Hollywood, and scanned it on a film scanner. The origin is at the upper left of the image. I drew a box around the top perfs, and its coordinates are: (207,272), (1159,727), (208,789), (1160,790). I drew a box around the bottom perfs, and its coordiantes are: (204,1176), (1158,1177), (206,1237), (1155,1238). The green band area was defined by: (385,718), (1069,718), (381,1242), (1066,1244). Top perf centerline: 759 pixels. Bottom perf centerline: 1207 pixels. Green band centerline: 1515.5 pixels Green band height: 525 pixels Perf-defined centerline: 1505.5 pixels Perf-defined frame height: 448 pixels Centerline offset: 10 pixels (low) Converting to inches: 448 pixels / 3*0.1870" => 798.574 pixels/inch green band frame height: 0.6574" Centerline offset: 0.0125" A 1.85:1 frame is .446" tall, so this green band is centered 2.8% off. I'll try to do RP40 later this week.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 06-07-2004 09:25 PM                     Not a good test John. You could've picked a random frame from that trailer's green band where the bounce was at one extreme or another. We all know how Deluxe prints like to bob up and down. Get a "scope letterboxed" trailer printed at Technicolor, preferably something from Buena Vista, as they are usually excellent about their green bands and measure off of that, then compare against PA35. I'm very interested to see what you turn up with. (If you want to email me high rez images, I will upload them to the server directly, then they can be linked to from the forum.)  |  IP: Logged Wolff King Morrow Master Film Handler Posts: 490 From: Denton, TX, USA Registered: Feb 2004 posted 06-07-2004 11:57 PM                        Edit: Nevermind. I'd prefer to send Brad a PM on this. Sorry for the post.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 06-15-2004 09:18 PM                     Brad: this is not intended to be end-all and be-all, it's merely a sample. But I will do a letterboxed trailer the next time I do one. Somebody send me a Harold and Kumar cyan trailer, please, also (email me for address). I don't think hi rez images are necessary...the images are just a rough guide to what I did, to help people visualize the numbers. Anyhow, here's a frame of SMPTE PA-35 (RP40). This time I did centerlines through the perfs visually to make the diagram a bit more helpful. The top perf area corners are: (470, 983), (1425,1046) The bototm perf area corners are: (470,1429), (1425,1492) Top perf centerline: 1018 pixels Bottom perf centerline: 1464 pixels RP40 centerline: 1237 pixels Perf-defined centerline: 1241 pixels Perf-defined frame height: 446 pixels Centerline offset: 4 pixels (high) Converting to inches: 446 pixels / 3*0.1870" => 795.009 pixels/inch Centerline offset: 0.005" A 1.85:1 frame is still .0.446" tall, so this RP40 frame is centered 1.1% off. And at 5 thou., I would say we're getting in the noise of the resolution I scanned at (800dpi), etc. (Also, there is some skew in the image, because I don't have the tech to register against the perfs in the film scanner and still scan the perfs themselves. So the film is taped down on the scanner. I averaged the y values so I don't believe the skew should represent a problem...it just looks funny.) So, umm, where's the problem? Everything looks good. The Deluxe green band seems to be on-center, as is the RP40. Did I measure centering of the green band wrong? Note that I measured the top edge and the bottom edge and took the average. Should I instead measure the top and bottom edge of the text and average that? Or is my TES green band somehow different from the ones that exhibit the problem? --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Dan Lyons Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 698 From: Seal Beach, CA Registered: Sep 2002 posted 06-15-2004 09:42 PM                     Where is that from? That looks nothing the Pa-35<rp40> that i use. danny  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 06-15-2004 09:58 PM                     What does yours look like? The RP40 standard specifies that image, so I don't know what else you might have. Do you have color, perhaps 35IQ? This is what it is from: sorry, no date on the can. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Craig Kocher Film Handler Posts: 10 From: West Hazleton, PA 18201 Registered: May 2004 posted 06-15-2004 11:18 PM                     I suppose I have it pretty easy since my Company Insists that the Green Band stays on the trailer, company policy. Just frame to the middle and were set. Still, I always look once the picture begins to see if were in Frame so to speak. Stupid Flat Films, I wish everything was in scope.  |  IP: Logged Christopher Seo Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 530 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-16-2004 01:24 AM                     Danny, I think that's an older version of 35-PA. The current SMPTE RP40 has the image that you're used to. John, is that 35-PA acetate or polyester base? I would assume you're using polyester for the most accurate measurements.  |  IP: Logged William Hooper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1879 From: Mobile, AL USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-16-2004 01:27 AM                        quote: Dan Lyons That looks nothing the Pa-35<rp40> that i use. That's the old-timey RP40 from back in Ed Jurich & W.K.L. Dickson's day. The new kind says 35PA on it, & has adjustable air shocks & a speaker under the hood that makes a sound like a turbo whine You can also tell by that's one of the old cans. The new SMPTE 35PA RP40 cans have Hanna-Barbera cartoon characters on them like Scooby Doo & the Jetsons.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 06-16-2004 01:32 AM                     It's acetate, Chris. Shrinkage shouldn't matter, though, we assume that is uniform and the measurement is registered off the pins. Wow, I had no idea there was an RP40 rev. I guess what's you get for living in your own little world... funny how all the other RP40 I've seen looks like that, too, though... --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 06-16-2004 02:39 AM                     quote: John Pytlak IF the SMPTE standards are being followed, framing using SMPTE 35-PA should provide the proper framing of any print. That's a big 'if' John, especially when dealing with subtitled foreign language films, probably about half of all the films I show. To start with, there's usually no indication on cans or leaders of the intended aspect ratio, you just have to use your best judgement. There usually isn't time to run the print before the show, the best you can hope for is to run the first few minutes. Secondly, the framing isn't always constant from reel to reel, it's necessary to check, and sometimes adjust slightly after a reel splice or a changeover. Thirdly, whoever did the subtitling doesn't always pay any attention to how the film was framed. You can look at a print, decide that it's intended to be, say, 1.66. There's no obvious unintended cropping of the image, nor inclusion of anything that shouldn't be there, and the subtitles are nicely positioned on the screen; perfect. Suddenly, at some point during the film, the subtitles will be printed lower in the frame, and will be cropped, or you realiise that your assessment of the intended aspect ratio was probably wrong, and it should have been not 1.66, but 1.85 after all, or vica versa. I've even seen subtitles printed very low on the frame, over image which clearly isn't intended to be seen. In those circumstances, you can't win. I think the best way to subtithe a widescreen print would be to have the picture hard-matted to the intended ratio, print the subtitles in the bottom margin, outside the picture area, use an Academy plate, or better still, a special one with the top edge cut to the Academy position to accomodate the subtitles, and the bottom edge correct for the picture ratio, and drop the top masking if possible. I've never seen a print made this way, I suppose it would have to be specially made, which would mean expensive, but it could be run as a normal print, without the subtitles, by simply using a normal plate. I have seen letterbox laserdiscs subtitled in this way.  |  IP: Logged

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