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Author Topic: BV Announces Cyan Track for "Mr. 3000" William Hooper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1879 From: Mobile, AL USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-29-2004 01:43 AM                        Cyan tracks have been discussed to the minutest degree in this thread. Short answer: If you get a cyan track print, you MUST play it on a red reader. You are bringing up points which have been brought up before; basically the entities which drove the conversion were concerned only with large, current-release theatres & 1st run product. The issues of the costs associated with the conversion for anybody else were not considered. Good luck on getting a college to cough up a couple of thousand dollars to upgrade their projectors, or smaller non-profits, or PAC's that run too few films annually to justify the expense. They'll say "Let's just run video, we can use it for powerpoint & AV stuff that comes on video anyway, it's a better investment." And they're right, & that's what's happening. The other big incompatibility issue is the previous standard silver tracks, when played on red readers, have more distortion. On the other hand, cyan tracks are unlistenable on the previous standard white light readers, so the cyan track proponents have forced a decision to run inferior sound for theatres that run 'classic' films. If you just leave the white light reader in place because you mostly run older product, you will lose a show when an old title comes in on a new print with a cyan track. A drive-in like the Beverly in Hattiesburg MS, which the owner spiffs up & operates just a couple of times a year to run a film as an event for fundraisers benefitting charities like the Association for Retarded Citizens is *not* going to be able to justify the conversion. We can kiss that cool venue & excellent activity goodbye. -- I see in your bio that you're afilliated with the Crossroads Film Festival. You guys look like you've been having a lot of fun, and I regret that I've been busy with other things & not had a chance to go to them. In Jackson, the home of Malaco! you guys need to start an initiative to send some folks over there to just camp out for a year & bio & document. Bobby Bland alone would be worth the ride! It was horrifying when Little Johnny Taylor died; there's a big lost chance to get a lot of fun stuff about Stax & the chitlin circuit! Haul some projectors over to the Alamo & run it for the full deal. It's funny how the Alamo (and the Old Alamo, at that) is the last surviving historic theatre in Jackson; after they pulled down the Century, the Istrione, the Paramount, etc., they suddenly looked around & said 'We have no historic theatre for snooty points!', & the Alamo, neglected for so long, suddenly became it!  |  IP: Logged Ed Inman Expert Film Handler Posts: 103 From: Jackson, Mississippi USA Registered: Jul 2004 posted 07-29-2004 01:47 AM                        Heaven forbid that a college student paying one buck to see a movie that's already been scratched from one end to another at the plex would complain about a little hiss or distortion (LOL). Seriously though, I know you can't fight corporate mandated technology changes for long so I'll probably try to buy a couple of those red thingys if and when absolutely necessary. But to abandon a 70-year-old film standard at this time in 35mm film's life cycle should be recognized for what it is: just another nail in the coffin for film as we know it. Studios don't care about alleged and marginal environmental benefits--that's just a silly line. The studios are plainly eager to abandon circulating film prints altogether in favor of digital projection. They have largely killed off 16mm nontheatrical distribution just within the past two years by tightening up DVD release schedules to within weeks of theatrical releases. Is 35mm film next for the chopping block? You betcha. The studios know they stand much to gain from forcing exhibitors to download films and project digital images. And by marginalizing and abandoning 35mm projector owners who don't own or can't afford the latest useless overpriced doodad is just another step in their preordained chain of events. And when the last mainstream 35mm projector shuts down about all I will probably be able to say is that it's the end of an era--good while it lasted--and crying won't help. Ed  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 07-29-2004 02:08 AM                        quote: Ed Inman when the last mainstream 35mm projector shuts down about all I will probably be able to say is that it's the end of an era ... but by then, you'll be so old your eyesight won't be good enough to tell the difference...  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 07-29-2004 02:41 AM                        Yeah, I'll just be happy to be alive. Somebody remind me to start pirating DCinema satellite transmissions when I get some free time.  |  IP: Logged William Hooper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1879 From: Mobile, AL USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-29-2004 03:10 AM                        I think you guys are not looking at other "media", & what the big theatre chains are looking at. Astronomically increased equipment costs have not really been a detterent to moving to digital in TV & radio; but consolidation, distribution, less hands-on tech (including production) at the local level, tighter corporate control, adding non-traditional revenue, & flexibility in technically adapting programming to sales structures are what's driving it. TV & radio don't move stuff around much on reels & cassettes as much any more; radio almost none at all: Production houses are e-mailing spots as mp3's, music is stored on hard drives. Digital artifacts & other quality issues which compare VERY negatively to analog formats have not mattered at all in implementation. I think that projection video in theatres is going to ramp up in the next decade. It already has outside the USA. Image quality is certainly not high on the list anymore for corporate, & apparently not for what they'll submit to an audience. The independents & smaller chains can take a look at the red reader impositon to see that the smaller pieces get bitten off first. Doubtless for projection it will be when mandates, incentives or exclusives are given to theatres running video to save on distribution costs, even if it's discs over reels. That's what killed reel-to-reels in radio. In exhibition, this will matter a great deal as the product is heavily tied to the economics of a widespread distribution medium - they can't just decide to play CD's like independent, non-networked radio stations.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 07-29-2004 07:37 AM                    I still question why they won't help these guys out by putting it in both cyan and magenta (yellow having been ruled out as too crappy) which would double whatever signal there is (might need a scrap of IR filter over the cell). They say 12dB down, right? If 6dB is half, does 12dB mean cut it half and then cut it in half again? And if so does that mean two layer dye-only would be down only 6dB? If that were true then cranking the bulbs and the pre-amp and it would be playable if noisy. I ask not for myself as my place has had red LED (basement readers) for 5 or 6 years.  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 07-29-2004 05:28 PM                        I don't think using more dye layers would have anywhere near that much effect, if any, since solar cells are way more sensitive to IR than visible light. Have you never tried playing an un-applicated conventional or high-magenta track? It sounds like absolute crap. No audience would pay to watch (well listen to) something like that, let alone ever return to your theatre.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 07-29-2004 11:42 PM                    And the downside to them doing cyan + magenta would be...? Hypothetically two layers doubles the signal level. In reality it's not that much because an incandescent bulb is stronger in visible red than in green. (IR is not a factor and could be filtered if the strong DC bias off the cell is a problem--might vary with processor). I am not advocating incorrect playback where people are being charged admission. I'm interested in backward compatibility and whether they are deliberately making it so many more dB incompatible for reasons that are political, not technical.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-30-2004 08:23 PM                     Kitchen physics.... Thing of 10dB as a magic number...if something is said to be 10dB quieter it also means that it will sound 10-TIMES quieter too. So take what you are listening to, turn it down so it is seems like it is 10-times quieter...then turn it down just a smidge more (but enough so you notice the change)...that would be about 12-dB down. Steve  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 07-30-2004 11:02 PM                    Yeah but I have no way to conceptualize what 10 times quieter means.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 08-02-2004 10:26 PM                     Well, most stereo volume knobs are calibrated in log scale, because that's how the human ear scales volume (perceptual acoustics, etc.). So set your stereo on 10, and then turn it down to 1, and that's 10 times louder/softer. Or if you want to hear 12 dB, well, instead of a "this one goes to eleven," grab a 12dB stereo . Or turn it down to 0.8{3}. --jhawk p.s.: Hmm, the stereo in here goes to 21. Whopee!  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 08-02-2004 10:29 PM                        quote: John Hawkinson So set your stereo on 10, and then turn it down to 1, and that's 10 times louder/softer. Isn't that a difference of 9?  |  IP: Logged Dominic Case Expert Film Handler Posts: 131 From: Sydney NSW Australia Registered: Aug 2003 posted 08-03-2004 07:17 PM                       in terms of "Doubling" and decibels, they are indeed a logarithic scale. One bel (10dB) is ten times the level (or intensity). 20db is 100 times. 3db is twice the level. So 12dB down is one sixteenth of the level. sample of sound level comparison What is "twice as loud"? If two equal sound sources sound twice as loud as one on its own, the combined sound is 3dB up. Amplitude is something a little different though. Doubling the amplitude of a signal (in volts) actually gives 4x the intensity of sound, which is a power thing, related to the square of the voltage.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 08-03-2004 08:18 PM                    I will take the silence of Ted, John, and other proponents on the issue of two layer dye tracks as implicit acknowledgement that such a track would not be detrimental in any way to red light playback of the cyan layer and that the only reason the Cyanics (to coin a name) won't do this is because they choose not to. A cyan (minus red) + magenta (minus green) ought to be readily identifiable for its deep blue color.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-03-2004 09:30 PM                     I still do not see any advantage since without reprossessed silver in the track an excitor lamp will transmit almost as much IR back to the cell raising the noise floor Remember with an excitor lamp all the light blocking is actually handled by the silver very little by the dyes  |  IP: Logged

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