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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Stupid "features" of cinema equipment (Page 6)

 
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Author Topic: Stupid "features" of cinema equipment
Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 09-19-2004 08:11 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think I see the problem with the Kinton split roller.

All of our FP-20 installations (the ones with the aforementioned rollers) were run with 20-minute reels and never a problem.

A couple of questions...what is the diameter of the hub you are running on your 20-minute reels....

The next question and probably the key to why we have never experienced the problem...we always ordered our FP-20s with "accelerated frictions"...which meant that the take-up gear was substantially smaller than the standard one. This was to ensure that cores would also take up on the units.

Kinoton is very fond of making common sense items extra-cost options (lamphouse dousers, controls facing the operator...accelerated frictions...etc).

If you tell me that your 20-minute reels have 5-inch (12.7cm) hubs are larger then I would grant you that this is a "stupid feature."

Steve

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 09-19-2004 08:16 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
Maybe because we run 2k reels the takeups don't grab tension fast enough? The trouble was always at the start of a reel. And yes, I carefully set the proper takeup tension. And took the slack out of the film before starting. I think since platters have the additional length of film and the constant torque pulling fron the takeup platter you're not seeing this kind of problem.
I never ran into these problems on changeover installation either. Did the installation technician have the proper tool for setting the friction axis? I don't know what it's called in English, but a special tool called "Friktionswaage" (roughly, "friction scales") was needed for that.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 09-19-2004 08:46 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The standard fp20 northamerican clutch was designed to take up with a 5" or larger core for a standard house reel
A exchange reel with a 4" core will have an issue

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

- posted 09-19-2004 09:09 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You're absolutely right. Now that you mention it I remember we always made sure to use a larger core for reel action.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

- posted 09-21-2004 10:59 PM      Profile for Tony Bandiera Jr   Email Tony Bandiera Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
A couple of questions...what is the diameter of the hub you are running on your 20-minute reels....

The next question and probably the key to why we have never experienced the problem...we always ordered our FP-20s with "accelerated frictions"...which meant that the take-up gear was substantially smaller than the standard one. This was to ensure that cores would also take up on the units.

Kinoton is very fond of making common sense items extra-cost options (lamphouse dousers, controls facing the operator...accelerated frictions...etc).

If you tell me that your 20-minute reels have 5-inch (12.7cm) hubs are larger then I would grant you that this is a "stupid feature."
We're using Goldberg Cast reels (15") with the standard hub which is 5" IIRC.

Bingo!! We most likely do not have the accelerated take-ups, the chain's sprocket for the takeup is something like 8" (!) [Big Grin] in diameter!!

As for controls, yeah, another stupid feature. I built custom remote panels for Start/Stop and Dowser.

Michael: Is it possible you have the accelerated take-ups? If your purchaser/engineer was smarter that the one who did my booth it would explain a lot. I was brought into the fray 4 days before the gala grand opening. [Eek!]

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Michael Wilkinson
The Entertainment King of Colusa and Beyond

Posts: 89
From: Colusa, CA USA
Registered: Apr 2004

- posted 11-30-2004 03:43 AM      Profile for Michael Wilkinson   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Wilkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Aaron...going back to page 2...
Wouldn't that be a YES? [puke]

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 11-30-2004 04:08 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How about the manual turret version of the Mil-2K machine? With that stupid placement of the turret release catch lever - about the right height in line with the eyes when one has to look out of a small port window to check frame and focus in a theatre that doesn't have projectionist viewing port windows, just the main port. Many time I almost poked my eye out with that lever. Strong does it again...not thinking of safety features.

Yuk - LIT bought out PerkinElmer stuff .. definitely signs of a "stay-away" company.

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Michael Wilkinson
The Entertainment King of Colusa and Beyond

Posts: 89
From: Colusa, CA USA
Registered: Apr 2004

- posted 11-30-2004 05:16 AM      Profile for Michael Wilkinson   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Wilkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thinking about great things such as Monee, CFS, and LIT brings me to Tokiwa...Has anyone seen the barrel shutters on the older TSR models? The shutter looks similar to a squirrel cage fan with two flaps that are spring loaded in the closed position. Once the projector gets to speed, the centrifugal force of the spinning barrel forces the flaps to open.
Another early Tokiwa issue is the film gate release knob. This knob is tiny enough as it is, but to make matters worse it is attached to a flimsy spring loaded threaded rod which will likely strip out the first time that you don't consciously remember to be gentle. Be sure to have some pliers readily available as the gate release knob substitute...
Other than that, from the two I have laying around, they seem to be pretty well built machines. I'm occasionally tempted to try one out, but haven't got up the nerve.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

- posted 11-30-2004 04:58 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Tokiwa with the built in spring loaded fire shutter in the main barrel shutter was stolen from earlier Ernemann designs and is also used by some Chinese projector manufacturers. LIT was started by key personel from ORC. ORC sold the bulb division to P & E and last spring sold the rights to ASL based in Illinois....keep your score card current [Big Grin]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 11-30-2004 06:10 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Monte L Fullmer
How about the manual turret version of the Mil-2K machine? With that stupid placement of the turret release catch lever - about the right height in line with the eyes when one has to look out of a small port window to check frame and focus in a theatre that doesn't have projectionist viewing port windows, just the main port. Many time I almost poked my eye out with that lever. Strong does it again...not thinking of safety features.
Wait a minute...an incompetent theatre design (one without an adequate view port, which can be part of the main port, if necessary) is the the fault of the projector manufacturer? This is "professional" equipment to be operated by "professionals." The only way your eyes are in danger is from the poor theatre design. I suppose if you leaned in far enough to catch your hair on a sprocket that would be the manufacturer's fault too. Lets put the blaim where it belongs, bad theatre design. I'm sure you can find enough legitimate complaints though.

Now...by a show of hands, how many of you have impaled yourself on a Kelmar rewinder spindle whilst walking by the rewinder?

Steve

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Matthew Jaro
Film Handler

Posts: 74
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Registered: Jul 2003

- posted 11-30-2004 06:18 PM      Profile for Matthew Jaro   Author's Homepage   Email Matthew Jaro   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve --- I have. I got hit in the stomach (technically not being impaled). I must be careful to take the spindles off when I'm not using the rewinder.

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Emma Tomiak
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 238
From: Carrollton, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2003

- posted 11-30-2004 09:09 PM      Profile for Emma Tomiak   Author's Homepage   Email Emma Tomiak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have. I got jabbed in the stomach as well. Left a nasty bruise, too.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 11-30-2004 10:12 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Michael Wilkinson
Once the projector gets to speed, the centrifugal force of the spinning barrel forces the flaps to open.
Actually that design was originated by Phillips in the FP 5, 6 and 7 projectors back in the 40's. A very good idea actually as its a no brainer for the operator of the equipment. If you don't want the fire shutter just remove the flaps. The barrel shutter is a good design in itself as it has two leading edges in effect a double shutter projector making it a tiny bit more light efficient than a single blade machine. With the faster cut off there is also less apparent flicker. The only downside is that a long focal length mirror is required in the lamphouse.

Benefits are:
1. Faster light cut off
2. Resulting in higher light efficiency.
3. Equivelent to a double blade mechanism without the gearing hassles.
4. Very quiet, almost noisless in operation.
5. Projector can be built motre compact.
6. Self cooling if properly designed.

quote: Steve Guttag
Now...by a show of hands, how many of you have impaled yourself on a Kelmar rewinder spindle whilst walking by the rewinder?
Its not the rewinders(Kelmars)fault.... its the operators for not removing the spindles and placing them in the rubber grommets that are there to retain them.

Mark

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Dean Kollet
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 591
From: Florida State University
Registered: Jul 2003

- posted 11-30-2004 11:00 PM      Profile for Dean Kollet   Email Dean Kollet   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have run into one, we always keep them in. Our faults, but I've still gotten a mean ass bruise from one. And for some reason they bend all the time causing an unsafe work environment when you are rewinding at a decent speed.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 12-01-2004 01:25 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
True, When I got my shirt ripped from forgetting to remove them spindles, and smaking an elbow into a 5/16" spindle, it's mandantory instructions for immediate removal when not in use and be stored in the grommet holes.

Hey, remember those Neumade rewind tables that when rewinding a 6k 1/2" spindle reel, and the reel had about 800 ft of film left, spinning about 2000rpm, and the clip flips off, digging two grooves from the mad spin of the flanges in the tile floor where it dropped, running down the length of the booth, smaking itself against the wall, spinning grooves in the brick in the process, thus bending the crap out of the aluminum flanges, and the manager runs upstairs wondering on what happened for he heard that thing hit the floor from downstairs.

I wasn't there, but the operator told me about this, and when I saw the results, it was quite impressive on how a reel can be a lethal weapon at times. -Monte

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