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Topic: New 70mm Print of "West Side Story"!!!

Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 08-14-2006 03:31 AM

quote: Steve Guttag
I personally, prefer the mag sound.

Course, I can see where this statement comes from: from the days of open reel recordings when recording companies were using the old AMPEX 300's and AMPEX 350 series open reel tape machines - just an excellent analog full frequency waveform that was captured and not waveforms that are crunched into "zeros" and "ones"... like Leo's comparison to the turntable cartridge (either moving coil or magnet) and styli (conical or sperical) capturing the wave form from a groove cut into a disc of vinyl.

-Monte

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-15-2006 08:06 AM

If all goes as planned, there will be a 70mm-capable house in Providence, RI. fairly soon (JJs with changeover, plus platter for 35mm only).... This will be a mag setup; DTS won't happen in the forseeable future.

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Richard P. May
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 243
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jan 2006

posted 08-15-2006 11:06 AM

To respond to Tim's question of "why?":
Film preservation. WEST SIDE STORY was photographed on 65mm negative, and the only way to have proper preservation in its original format is to make protection elements in this size.
The first step is a 70mm answer print to be sure of proper color correction.
There might not be much commercial exhibition of such a print, but it does allow the picture to be shown as originally intended.
Sony is to be complimented for doing this.

RPM

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-15-2006 07:27 PM

quote: Leo Enticknap
It still uses some compression; even if not as severe as Dolby. To my subjective ears DTS tracks lack HF detail compared to the best 70mm mag.

I would agree with that judgment -when it comes to late 1980's and early 1990's movies that were mixed with fairly modern equipment and laid down on 70mm with Dolby SR mag. However, when it comes to older movies like Patton or Lawrence of Arabia where the sound design and original mixing technology was a lot more primitive DTS will be good enough.

Another thing on DTS' side is the dual system approach. Any of those DTS 70mm prints can be paired with new discs or hard drives containing audio in much better quality formats. You cannot do that at all with any sound on film system. If the sound is on the film it is tied to that film print permanently. This new West Side Story print could be presented potentially in any number of different formats. Not just DTS or any other lossy data compressed format. With a DTS XD-10 unit you could potentially play back the film in uncompressed LCPM 5.1 at various levels of bit depth and sample rate.

But with a movie over 40 years old, the real weak link in the audio chain is the primitive beginnings of its soundtrack.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-15-2006 09:21 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
However, when it comes to older movies like Patton or Lawrence of Arabia where the sound design and original mixing technology was a lot more primitive DTS will be good enough.

Ahhhhh, not true! Actually the mixing facilities those films were mixed in were not primitave at all and were very high tech even by todays standards. The only thing that really improved in mags last days were the mag heads themselves and the oxides to record on. The last generation of oxides were so good that one really didn't need any noise reduiction at all. Also emember that those mentioned films were 5 channel frontal mixes... not the simple center channel crap being churned out today.

There is still operating today quite a bit of very highly regarded tube gear in the top mix down houses in the world.

Mark

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 08-16-2006 01:35 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
Another thing on DTS' side is the dual system approach. Any of those DTS 70mm prints can be paired with new discs or hard drives containing audio in much better quality formats. You cannot do that at all with any sound on film system.

Actually you can rerecord the stripes on a 70mm print (assuming that it hasn't been cut and the six-track master of that mix is still available), and this was done a aound 3-4 years ago on three reels of a print of Empire of the Sun which had picked up some magnetic interference on one of the tracks. With the whole print running from a platter (therefore the difference wasn't in the projector) you could hear the difference - the rerecorded tracks had a much better s/n ratio. Admittedly this isn't done very often, though.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 08-18-2006 11:45 AM

quote: Scott Norwood
If all goes as planned, there will be a 70mm-capable house in Providence, RI.

Scott, is this the same theatre I'm thinking of? [Wink]

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-18-2006 11:59 AM

Yup; the machines should be in place fairly soon, though the theatre owner still needs to be convinced to upgrade the sound system (currently mono) with something with mag capability and the screen also should be replaced before we can even consider running anything in 70mm.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-18-2006 02:59 PM

Most Mag tracks are very good and often it is the fact we don't match the preemphasis that was used in the original recordings that lead to them sounding off
As well over time mag does build up hiss and print through

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-18-2006 03:13 PM

Unfortunately, magnetic oxide could also aggravate "vinegar syndrome" on old triacetate prints (iron is suspected of being a catalyst for the degradation reaction). Very important to store those older prints in a cool, dry, and vented area.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-18-2006 07:25 PM

I heard from very reliable sources close to Sony yesterday that when the new print when first ordered via P.O. it was rejected as too costly. When the P.O. was re-typed and re-submitted as a "Color Correction Refrence 70mm print" it was immiediately approved. Apparently it is tied to the new DVD release. It is reported to have cost close to $60,000.00 to produce. Phew [Eek!]

. Goes to show you that if one makes things technical sounding enough for the front office that anything can slide though.

Mark

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 08-19-2006 01:01 AM

quote: Scott Norwood
Yup; the machines should be in place fairly soon,

OMG, Scott! You're amazing! I know you're the one that probably pulled this off, too! Fantastic! [Big Grin]

Btw, don't forget to snag me that Powers head out of the attic someday. [Wink]

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David Graham Rose
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 187
From: Cambridge, UK
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 08-23-2006 02:54 PM

Greetings All

Can anyone confirm if the West Side Story 70mm print is 6 track mag or DTS? Has anyone seen it yet or is this just wishful thinking?

David

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 08-24-2006 06:17 AM

quote: John Pytlak
Unfortunately, magnetic oxide could also aggravate "vinegar syndrome" on old triacetate prints (iron is suspected of being a catalyst for the degradation reaction). Very important to store those older prints in a cool, dry, and vented area.

That's certainly our experience working with newsfilm (usually cut 16mm neg + acetate sepmag) here. It's not uncommon to open up a picture element from the '50s or '60s and fine it in pretty good shape; then open its mag track and the whole room stinks within seconds.

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Mike B. Smith
Film Handler

Posts: 82
From: Universal City
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 08-25-2006 11:58 PM

Hi David, just ran two reels of 70mm West Side Story today, it was in DTS, and the picture image was fantastic! Don't know if they stuck any mag prints, I doubt it.

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