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This topic comprises 12 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  10  11  12 
 
Author Topic: The best 35mm projector
Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-22-2006 06:41 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Will Kutler
It would have been interesting to test the service life and performance of oil-lite bearings on these machines.

They didn't have to worry about lean manufacturing back then, they just did things the right way instead! I've never been at all impressed by the service life of any oilite bushings in anything that I've had to work with over the years. The oil always seems to evaporate out sometimes even before the actual bishing is at the end of its life from a wear standpoint. Most intermittent movements use an outboard oilite bushing and an inner cast iron bushing... the cast iron inner bushings always outlasts the oilite outer bushing. another good example of a no wear cast iron/steel assembly are the sprocket assemblies in the DP-70 which show no wear al all after 50 years of use. I think if given the chance the DP-70 mechanism could easily do 100 years of failtless service with normal film path and electrical replacements. So absolutely, I'd take steel running in cast iron any day over brass, bronze or oilite.

Mark

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Nathan Powers
Film Handler

Posts: 12
From: Salem, MA
Registered: Mar 2006


 - posted 12-23-2006 11:25 AM      Profile for Nathan Powers   Email Nathan Powers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Best 35mm Projector I Have Ever Used... Prevost P93 ! Most Stable Picture I've Ever Seen, Very Solid Construction, Easy To Repair And Rebuild....Unless You Have A Cinema Tech That Decides Century Oil Is A Good Idea For It...Then You Have A Problem. [uhoh] The 35/70mm Combo Is A Nice One As Well...But A Little Big!

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 12-23-2006 12:03 PM      Profile for Sam D. Chavez   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Which P93 do you have? There are three different versions I know of starting about 25 years ago and they still use the model number on current production but is is a very different machine.

I made a red reader for the earliest ones imported to the US.

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Nathan Powers
Film Handler

Posts: 12
From: Salem, MA
Registered: Mar 2006


 - posted 12-23-2006 12:15 PM      Profile for Nathan Powers   Email Nathan Powers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I owned 4 Prevosts that were rescued from a dumpster 3 P93's from the 1960's/70's era...with the 120v motors (converted, they originally had 3 phase)...im not sure which version they were. One of them actually went to someone who was prototyping an LED reader... [Roll Eyes] maybe it was you! two other ones went to a struggling small cinema in columbia, they were in dire need of new equipment, and the other one was a P70...the the 35mm/70mm combo that went to some educational institution. I wish I still had them, very very good projectors id trade in a century any day for one of those. The owner of the Prevost company is actually very helpful and awsome to work with, excelent customer support...even if the parts take 30 years to get here... [Big Grin]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-23-2006 03:13 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are two P-93's that are at least 25 years old running at a twin in Winnemucca, NV that I maintain. They both have Sam's readrs installed on them and unbelievably both have very good scanning drums... no out of round drums. These machines have run faultless except for the crappy turret rotate motor they use. They have gone through at least two per machine. Other than that no problems what so ever.

Mark

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 12-23-2006 08:22 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Mark

I would suggest that you open up your copy of "The Machinery's Handbook". Under the chapter "Machine Elements" is an entire section covering "Plain Bearing Materials".

There are 7 key properties of bearing materials:
1: Fatigue resistance
2: Embeddability: the ability of the bearing material to
absorb or embed within itself large or small dirt
particles present in a lubrication system. Poor
Embeddability means that circulating dirt will score
both the bearing and the journal shaft. Good
embeddability means that the bearing material will
entrap this dirt and force it into the bearing material
out f the way where it will do no harm.
3: Compatibility or anti-scoring tendencies
4: Confrmability: malleability and of the bearing material to
conform to the journal shaft during run-in/break-in.
5: High thermal conductivity
6: Corrosion resistance
7: Load capacity or strength

Cast Iron "is an inexpensive bearing material capable of operation at light loads and low speeds, i.e. up to 130 ft/min and and 150 lb/in squared. These bearings must be well lubricated and have a rather large clearance so as to avoid scoring from particles torn from the cast iron that ride between the bearing and journal. A journal hardness of between 150 and 250 Brinell has been found to be best when using cast-iron bearings." In other words, cast iron has poor embeddability and campatibility properties.

Mark, you are also uneducated about oil-lite bearings:

Porous Metals: "self-lubricating bearings are usually made by sintering metals such as plain or leaded bronze, iron, and stainless steel. The sintering produces a spongelike structure capable of absorbing fairly large quantities of oil, usually 10-35 percent of the total volume. These bearings are used where lubrication supply is difficult, inadequate, or infrequent. This type of bearing should be flodded from time to time to resaturate the material. Another use of these porous materials is to meter a small quantity of oil into the bearings such as in a drip feed system." See table 13 for Application limits

So Mark, the reason that oil-lit bearings have failed you is due to improper useage.

Also Mark, your comment regardin Lean Manufacturing makes no sense??? Lean concepts are critical in todays manufacturing world. It all comes down to waste elimination and the optimum utilization of resourcs. Lean is a culture that includes everyone employeed within the manufacturing enterprise.

Regards

Kutler

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 12-23-2006 10:53 PM      Profile for Sam D. Chavez   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lean or Just-In-Time manufacturing rely on parts getting to the assembly line in the nick of time. If anything is off, the customer gets his stuff late. The idea is to just have minimum inventory, finished and unfinished, on hand and is some bean counter's dream.

It's an admirable goal but it also totally relies on a perfect forecast by marketing. In the normal US business model, the Manufacturing department "owns", and is thus, penalized for excess inventory even though they don't do the forecast. This all leads to turf battles within companies and eventually to building to order instead of having something on the shelf for peak demand times.

In our short sighted cinema world, it sucks.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 12-24-2006 02:37 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
...prob why you ever noticed that any of the Simplex units have manufacture dates on their products - like Jack-in-the-Box: cook (manufactured) to order..

Yea, inventory sitting on the shelves like like money sitting there: doing nothing and wasting away when it could be used for something else more constructive.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-24-2006 07:31 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
They didn't have to worry about lean manufacturing back then, they just did things the right way instead!
What I said makes sense to me... They didn't even consider lean manufacturing back then. They almost always had stuff there before asembley of a product started because you've forgotten that most parts were made in house back then.

quote:
Mark, you are also uneducated about oil-lite bearings:

Will,
You can stick your Machinery Handbook book up your ass as far as how great Oilite is! I am very aware of the characteristics of Oilite and have used them in several projects over the years. The characteristics are such that the oilite bushings in a Simplex X-L sprocket assy. might last perhaps 20 years if you're lucky... they also make a mess out of the shaft as well. Remember the X-L IS an oil bath machine too! While the cast iron bushings and shafts in a DP-70 show zero wear after 50 years. Many oilite Century and Simplex X-L outboard bearings wear out in just several years of use IF NOT KEPT OILED.... oh but this is Oilite material that you don't have to oil. Next time you hear an X-L squeeking away and you have to oil the oilite outboard intermittent bushing you'll remember how great they are.

Happy Holidays!

Mark

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 12-24-2006 11:34 AM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Mark

It seems that you did not read what I wrote. As I said, oillite bushings DO require periodic relubrication.

Also, both Mark and Sam have proven their lack of understanding regarding Lean Manufacturing Concepts.

JIT is much, much more than "bean-counting". JIT is a philosophy based on the planned elimination of non-value added waste from all aspects of manufacturing and on continuous improvement of productivity. It encompasses all activities required to produce the final product, from design to delivery. Besides having only the required inventory when required, JIT also includes quality improvement to zero defects, lead time and queue length reduction, lot size reduction, and the revisement/improvement of manufacturing operations themselves.
JIT has two fundamental objectives: waste elimination and an attitude of continuous improvement (kaizen) In JIT, 7 wastes have been identified:
1: Waste of overproduction
2: Waste of waiting
3: Waste of transportation
4: Waste of processing, itself
5: Waste of stocks
6: Waste of motion
7: Waste of making defective products

Simply put, Lean Manufacturing is about the aggressive elimination of non-value added waste from all aspects of the manufacturing process. And a key part of lean is the use of flexible manufacturing cells. Lean Manufacturing and 6 Sigma complement each other.

The Japanese Lean System has become known as the Toyota Production System. And it is through Lean Concepts that the Japanese were able to kick our (U.S) asses in manufacturing in the post-WWII era. Ironically, Lean is based in large about what Henry Ford wrote in 1926, and resulted in car prices being cut in half and workers wages to double.

An excellent example of a CIM/Lean enterprise is GEMA (Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance). Just type in GEMA in a search engine and a million internet hits will come up. Anyhow, GEMA is a co-op effort of DaimlerChrysler, Hyundai, and Mitsubishi Motors to produce technology-advanced, fuel efficient but powerful, low cost 4-cylinder engines.

Lean has often failed in the United States because it is a work-place culture and philosophy. When people hear "Lean" they think of loosing their jobs. The subsequent result is the sabatoge of Lean implementation. Lean is not about eliminating jobs, it is about eliminating waste.

The history of manufacturing in the US has always been about management vs workers (and how the two always try to screw each-other). Rarly have the two parties worked as a team for the betterment of enterprise.

Key lean manufacturing principles include:
Pull processing: products are pulled from the consumer end, not pushed from the production end
Perfect first-time quality - quest for zero defects, revealing & solving problems at the source
Waste minimization – eliminating all activities that do not add value & safety nets, maximize use of scarce resources (capital, people and land)
Continuous improvement – reducing costs, improving quality, increasing productivity and information sharing
Flexibility – producing different mixes or greater diversity of products quickly, without sacrificing efficiency at lower volumes of production
Building and maintaining a long term relationship with suppliers through collaborative risk sharing, cost sharing and information sharing arrangements.
Lean is basically all about getting the right things, to the right place, at the right time, in the right quantity while minimizing waste and being flexible and open to change. More importantly, all of these concepts have to be understood, appreciated, and embraced by the actual employees who build the products and therefore own the processes. The cultural aspect of lean is just as important as the actual tools or methodologies.

Lean thinking got its name from a 1990’s best seller called "The Machine That Changed the World : The Story of Lean Production". The book chronicles the transitions of automobile manufacturing from craft production to mass production to lean production.

The seminal book "Lean Thinking" by Womack and Jones, introduced five core concepts:

Specify value in the eyes of the customer
Identify the value stream and eliminate waste
Make value flow at the pull of the customer
Involve and empower employees
Continuously improve in the pursuit of perfection.

Cheers

K

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 12-24-2006 11:52 AM      Profile for Sam D. Chavez   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As I said, it is a noble goal (like religion) but it is operated by people (who use its principles for their own agendas) and it often falls far short in practice and in-effect leaves the cupboards bare of goods.

It's sort of like the difference between understanding the Bible and living up to it's ideals. I would however, hesitate to tell you to shove the good book up your bum.

Merry Christmas.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-24-2006 02:02 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
W,

I completely understand the meaning of it and and feel about the same way Sam does about it. Next time you order a replacement board for your two year old TV or or projector part, in particular a Pro 35 part and it doesn't exist anymore because no one has requested one in over a year you can thank the Lean System of business operation. In the real world it just doesn't work.

Also Will, Please help me to understand why the cast iron bushing shows no wear while the Oilite one has completely worn out as I mentioned above while both are running in an oil bath. Thanks!

Since I'm not religious I'll refrain from even bringing up the Bible.

No.... Happy Holidays for Will!
Mark

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-24-2006 02:18 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Sam Chavez
Just-In-Time manufacturing rely on parts getting to the assembly line in the nick of time. If anything is off, the customer gets his stuff late.
quote: Will Kutler
both Mark and Sam have proven their lack of understanding regarding Lean Manufacturing Concepts...

JIT is a philosophy based on the planned elimination of non-value added waste from all aspects of manufacturing

You give a very good and detailed explanation, Will. I got the impression, though, that Sam essentially said the same thing. I mean, you both arrived at the same place, he just got there quicker. [Wink]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-24-2006 03:34 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Tim Reed
You give a very good and detailed explanation
[Confused]

Actually Tim,

He still failed to explain why the cast iron bushings last far longer then his beloved Oilite bushings [Big Grin] .

Mark

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 12-24-2006 03:42 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim,

In Lean Manufacturing you have both "pull" and "push" philosophies.

Pull processing: products are pulled from the consumer end, not pushed from the production end.

And as I stated, Lean is much more in depth than Sam's explination.

Mark is going to have to explain his statement of Lean not working in the real world! And he needs to explain his statement very well. After all, the Japanese embraced Lean concepts in the post WWII era and ended up kicking America's ass in manufacturing. In order to be successful, Lean has to be accepted as a work-place culture. And American business just does not "get it".

Lean embraces both the manufacturing and service sectors.

In our disfunctional cinema exhibition industry, the lack of Lean concepts are a perfect explaination of everything that we acknowledge as "Film Done Wrong".

And Mark

In all product manufacture the bearing is supposed to take the brunt of the abuse. In the various Simplex models, it is usually the expensive shaft that gets scored and damaged. So now you need to worry about producing and stocking oversized shafts and parts. Would it not be better to replace a $1.50 oil-lite bearing every 20 years instead of that $50-$60 shaft?

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