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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » showing a silent movie right before Batman? (Page 4)

 
This topic comprises 7 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7   
Author Topic: showing a silent movie right before Batman?
Ralph Martin
Film Handler

Posts: 30
From: Vacaville, Ca./ USA
Registered: Jul 2008

- posted 07-20-2008 04:59 PM      Profile for Ralph Martin   Email Ralph Martin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Leo Enticknap
one show print rental here is around £150-200, not the £850 they're stinging you for
It is expensive – in fairness to them - the price is for two performances. They pay the shipping to California and I pay the shipping back to the UK.

I think the real problem with the cost is that there are simply too many hands in the cash box. When we did Metropolis Kino International had the print and the rights and they gave us a very good deal because we’re a school. They're amazing people. I can’t say enough good things about Kino.

In the case of Wings, everything is separated so nobody is able to offer a “package deal.” But I’m learning a lot about the business and I think next year’s production will cost a little less [Smile]

quote: Frank Angel
As for the music rights, wouldn't the theatre already have ASAP and BMI licences for music performance in their theatre? Why would you need to pay that kind of exhorbidant license fee?
Actually I do many concerts with our school orchestra. The musical fees for the orchestral score to wings are about right. BMI, ASCAP, etc. don’t deal with Grand Rights - that is to say large dramatic works such as musicals, operas, etc. nor do thy deal with synchronization rights (the right to put music to visuals such as a movie). It's generally quite expensive.

This leads me to a complaint: When a theater books a movie they are getting a license to present both the visuals and sound – including music. In the case of a silent only the visuals are licensed by Paramount – the music must be licensed separately so the movie should be cheaper. Oh well…

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Jack Theakston
Master Film Handler

Posts: 411
From: New York, USA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted 07-20-2008 07:13 PM      Profile for Jack Theakston   Email Jack Theakston   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Where are you renting the music from? There are a number of people, including myself, who can rent you original scores made out of public domain or original music for a flat rate.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 07-21-2008 02:12 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What is this score you are buying rights to? Is it something composed specifically for the film? We just finished a CinEvent as we call them, where we booked THE GOLEM, silent, and we commissioned a score composed for the film by an accomplished musician and composer, Tom Nazziola who also conduced The BQE Project ensemble during the screenings. Even commissioning someone to write an original score didn't cost us as much as you are paying.

We were going to rent the print from Eastman House after jumping thru allot of hoops...good hoops though -- I am glad they are so protective of their prints (can anyone tell me what's the highest, lowest and mean temperature in the area where you store your prints? How bout the humidity?). Then we discovered that the Kino version on DVD was really the definitive version with lots of additional footage that they assembled from various sources in different countries. Also, our composer had already been scoring to the longer Kino version and re-editing the score for the 35mm print was out of the question.

And yes, Kino is one of the best in the industry.

Just Saturday we ran ENTER THE DRAGON ENTER THE DRAGON with an incredible score composed by Karsh Kale/Soh Daiko, again which we commissioned.

How about this for a class project -- have the music students compose their own score AND perform it. Now THAT would be special and would pack the house!

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 07-21-2008 03:49 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My favourite question on the GEH questionnaire is where it asks if the prints will be stored under armed guard while they're in your building.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 07-21-2008 03:56 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yah, and what are the guards' rotation schedules....how many times do they patrol film the storage room, the room where they are shipped, the room where they are inspected. What kind of locks are on the doors. Who has the keys? [Big Grin]

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 07-21-2008 04:30 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To satisfy's Ralphs curiousity on the technicial jargon in describing this one part of the projector:

First image is the slider trap for this one projector that is planned to be used for this silent film presentation - which holds the slider aperture:

-

Second image with the slider aperture removed and a standard aperture plate in it's place - that can be held down with external means as Steve previously mentions.

-

(Just a little visual help here for Ralph and sorry on the weak fotography due to celphone cameras..)

-Monte

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Ralph Martin
Film Handler

Posts: 30
From: Vacaville, Ca./ USA
Registered: Jul 2008

- posted 07-21-2008 09:56 AM      Profile for Ralph Martin   Email Ralph Martin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
How about this for a class project -- have the music students compose their own score AND perform it. Now THAT would be special and would pack the house!
Agreed - Last year the music students scored and accompanied a Looney-tunes cartoon and our media class provided the live sound effects and even live Foley effects. Scoring a cartoon is really tough, but it was only about 8 minutes long.

They were able to do it because of their study of the professional composers. So, during the summer we get the professional stuff.

This score we’re using for Wings is by Carl Davis. We have a 35-piece orchestra (crammed between the screen and the first row of seats in a multiplex theater) [Smile]

Today I should be getting the information about the throw and screen dimensions. With all of the information I've learned from this forum I'll be

-- Looking for a proper lens and cutting an aperture plate to fit the projector and keeping it for future presentations

-- Using the scope prime lens if finding a proper lens isn’t accomplished.

-- Looking into better options with regard to rental of prints next year.

And then have a memorable performance in August.

Thanks for all of your great advice help. I’ll keep you posted.

Ralph

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

- posted 07-21-2008 10:46 AM      Profile for Bill Enos   Email Bill Enos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One thing that musicians must be aware of on this type of film is that the DVD or VHS they practiced to may be different from the film they play for in the live show. Our organist of several years ago practiced extensively at home with a VHS of Phantom of the Opera, comes show time, the newly struck 16mm print had scenes in a different order from the VHS and had something that wasn't on the VHS, fortunately he's quite an accomplished player and improviser and never missed a note. A 35mm print we played later was different still but the same as a DVD that is currently available.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 07-21-2008 11:42 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another issue with using video as the practice source...their times (at least on tape media) isn't too precise...if a sequence is to take 2:15 on tape...it might be something different with a film show. I would hope that with DVDs that tape stretch would not have the same effect it does on VHS. If you have a precise number of beats on a sequence...be prepaired to adjust that.

Make sure you have rehersal time with the actual print you are going to run (video or film)...the final plate or lens is unimportant for the rehersal...the key is to ensure your timing is what you think it is going to be.

For one violinist, I was adjusting the film speed in 8/100ths of a frame increments to get the sequence to come out right! It seems silly but some musicians just have to have the timing their way and if they reherse to one speed then by god they have to have it at that speed. To accommodate this violinist, the conductor insisted on specific number of beats in a particular sequence....which I did...for another sequence it had to be again a specific number of beats...which, if using the same speed, it would not have been! So mid performance I was adjusting speed (to presets) to ensure that each sequence would have the required number of beats. Fortunately, this has been the exception, not the rule! Rarely does one performer get to make such demands.

Steve

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

- posted 07-21-2008 12:38 PM      Profile for Chris Slycord   Email Chris Slycord   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's ridiculous. My band teachers in JH/HS were professional musicians at various points in life and said that they'd have to be ready for anything because there were times when the conductor would start up a performance at a speed different from when they had rehearsed the piece prior.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 07-21-2008 02:08 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
Another issue with using video as the practice source...their times (at least on tape media) isn't too precise...if a sequence is to take 2:15 on tape...it might be something different with a film show.
Yonks ago, during the year I worked at MOMI in London, we ran a season of Kevin Brownlow / Carl Davis silents with recorded orchestral track. The way we came up with to sync the two was to play the orchestral track from a hi-fi VHS tape. There was a CCTV camera on the projected image, the image from which was displayed on a monitor in the booth. Right next to it was another monitor showing the image from the VHS. A projectionist monitored both images and operated a projector speed control on the fly in order to keep the film in visual sync with the tape, so that the score being played back from the tape in the auditorium would remain in sync with the projected image from the film projector. Though it was labour intensive and needed quite a bit of practice to get right, it worked.

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Ralph Martin
Film Handler

Posts: 30
From: Vacaville, Ca./ USA
Registered: Jul 2008

- posted 07-21-2008 04:53 PM      Profile for Ralph Martin   Email Ralph Martin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We have no problem with tempo or synchronization. Musicians learn to watch the conductor. In our performances I always conduct different tempi from our rehearsals just to keep them paying attention. All they have to do is watch me.

The students study 107 hours in our rehearsal Studio at school before the first dress rehearsal with the print. The DVD is provided by the print owner with the score recorded on the DVD for reference. So it should be the same. If not we have another cool challenge to deal with – just another one of life’s happy moments. [Smile]

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999

- posted 07-21-2008 04:55 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd like to be at this presentation of Wings in California.

You must teach a fun class.

Scoring a Looney Tunes cartoon. What a riot! I bet you had some real kooky stuff done!!!

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Ralph Martin
Film Handler

Posts: 30
From: Vacaville, Ca./ USA
Registered: Jul 2008

- posted 07-21-2008 08:19 PM      Profile for Ralph Martin   Email Ralph Martin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yep, they’re a great bunch of kids.

The theater just gave me this information:

Audutorium 16

Screen dimensions: 26ft X 49ft 3inches

Throw to center of curved screen 82ft 11 inches (just corrected)

Curved screen recesses 3ft 5inches at center.

Anything I have to worry about here?

BTW – I don’t think I mentioned --- It’s Brenden Theaters in Vacaville, Ca. It’s a privately owned chain based in Las Vegas. I believe they have 7 locations - One IMAX.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 07-21-2008 08:20 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Chris Slycord
That's ridiculous. My band teachers in JH/HS were professional musicians at various points in life and said that they'd have to be ready for anything because there were times when the conductor would start up a performance at a speed different from when they had rehearsed the piece prior.
Adjusting tempi when you are not fettered with an external element like the pacing of shots and scenes in a movie is one thing, needing to change the tempo when a scene that has music written for it goes missing or when additional scenes all of a sudden appear, that's a different story; changing tempi won't necessarily be enough to fix it. Composing film scores is probably one of most difficult of music disciplines.

As stated above, those video copies can vary so radically from existing 35mm print elements that one can't assume ever that they will match. Most silent films have gone thru many reincarnations over the decades.

Bruce is right, it must be a hoot and a hollar for the kids in your classes.

Have a great show, Ralph. Take some pictures if you can to post here.

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