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Topic: How do you thread --- and why?

Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 11-10-2008 02:34 PM

quote: Bill Enos
One of these men was part of a 4 man crew that ran one print of one of the roadshow films for a year and a half and it didn't have visible dirt or scratches at the end. That was reel to reel 70mm on Norelcos. His comment was that if the booth was clean, the floor was swept 3 times a day, and damp mopped once, touching the floor didn't matter.

{Bold emphasis added by me}

Thank you for posting that. It emphasises my point in my post above, that if you keep things clean, including the machines, booth floor, hands, then it WON'T cause the film to get dirty no matter where you thread up.

Although even though I keep my booth clean, I still won't let the film touch the floor. [Big Grin]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 11-10-2008 03:28 PM

Bullshit. Just because YOU don't see scratches and dirt (or THINK you don't see them) doesn't mean that they are not there. It just means that either your light is insufficient to show things on your screen, your eyesite is bad or you are not capable of noticing such details... or a combination of the three. I'll often stand next to someone and say "you see those specks of dirt?" Of course they'll respond in the negative. That's when I start losing hope that others will care enough to do things correctly. Also keep in mind that the bulk of ancient union projectionists aren't the best source of valuable information when it comes to keeping things clean. They are the ones who taught the shoe polish method because they are blind and cannot find the splice any other way.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Looks like I'm about the only one that does the soundtrack away from the screen.

My soundtrack is away from the screen. "Towards the tree, away from the wall" is what I always command with an iron fist. As indicated, our platters are on the non-op side of the projector.

quote: Dominic Espinosa
We also do a "running start" by motoring through the extra leader before hitting the start button.

If you don't have a start cue, this is the best alternative rather than motoring down, shutting off the motor and hoping your projector stops in the correct place and starting it later. The fools at Regal Cinemas are supposed to thread on a single number via their leader (piling the rest onto the floor... supposedly company policy) and then start the projector. They use Strong CNA-style automations which can accommodate a start cue. But of course haven't figured that out.

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Matthew Bailey
Master Film Handler

Posts: 461
From: Port Arthur,TX
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 11-10-2008 05:02 PM

I'm using another way to thread while keeping the leader off the floor. With the intermittent sprocket stopped in frame & framing knob in the middle of its range, using the MUT & a metal split reel that screws together by spinning the flanges by hand if using a large plastic spool on it or a trailer flange if a using a small plastic spool, I fist thread the center payout & wind several feet of film onto the spool remove the film & spool & use a rubber band or two to keep the film from unraveling as I thread then pull the last few feet off after threading the take up deck rollers keeping the film on the deck then winding onto the takeup ring.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 11-10-2008 06:05 PM

quote: Joe Redifer
They use Strong CNA-style automations which can accommodate a start cue. But of course haven't figured that out.

And CNA automations aren't that all hard to figure out. Yet, why do you need a start cue when the automation sequence can do that for you if you program the system right?

CNA's were the massive upgrade to the old CPA-10's - in which I do like better (if the system behaves..) due to the batch file programming along with the neat bells and whistles that came with this older automation.

CNA-100's reminds me of the extinct SPA 5 and 7's that EPRAD made for STRONG with choosable settings than the old rotary switch of the SPA series..

-Monte

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 11-10-2008 06:15 PM

How else would the film know when to start if it didn't have a start cue on the leader? Unless ALL of your leaders are the same exact length, ALL of your platters exactly equidistant from the projectors, ALL of the movies are ALWAYS threaded from the top deck to the middle (or any combination of the three, but one must ALWAYS be the payout and one must ALWAYS be the takeup) and everyone in the complex threads the same exact way without exception and ends up with the same frame in the gate, there is no way for the automation to know when to open everything up, hence the old programmed delay of 8 seconds or so which is so primitive that even a modern light switch is more advanced.

Start cues kick ass. No need to worry, opens on the same frame every time on each projector without any effort (or lame motoring) whatsoever.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 11-10-2008 06:55 PM

quote: Joe Redifer
Bullshit. Just because YOU don't see scratches and dirt (or THINK you don't see them) doesn't mean that they are not there.

And even though many reading this may not understand Joe's dry sense of humor from time to time and give him proper credit, I have worked with Joe before and I can assure everyone that he is a damned good projectionist and his prints are immaculate when he is finished with them. I have proven his point time and time again over the years where just because YOU don't see the defect on YOUR screen truly does not mean it is not there on the print and won't be seen on someone else's screen.

Also 70mm shows dirt significantly less than 35mm films. The same speck will be substantially smaller. That's just simple math. Regardless though there is no way anyone ran a print without film cleaning for a year and a half and it was just like new. Joe put it right when he said "bullshit". Maybe he should have said "gullible" to anyone believing that.

Too many people seem to think age means knowledge and expertise. Bullshit. That just isn't the case. I know guys who have been projecting all their life who are in their 60s and they absolutely suck compared to some teenage kid properly trained with a year's experience. Likewise I know a couple of other guys in their 60s who are spectacular projectionists. It all depends on the person and if they take the foolish attitude "I've been doing this for three thousand years" approach, of if they actually give a shit and are open to learning new and better ways of film handling. Even today I will occasionally be somewhere and see a trick that someone else was doing and will integrate it into my methods and training. There is no such thing as one person who knows the best ways of doing everything, and yes that includes me too...but at least I am constantly open to new ideas, unlike most people who have many years worth of experience.

And by the way, union does NOT mean quality either. Again, it all depends on the person and how much they actually care about their presentation.

For the record, the reason why you will sometimes see people pitching to thread the emulsion side of the film on the rollers is because after doing a year's worth of testing, I have found that it is the base side of the film that carries the dirt. Running the emulsion side on as many rollers as possible (without introducing stupid twists into the film path) keeps the films cleaner.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 11-10-2008 07:38 PM

Brad's definitely correct on that one... one just needs to look at the media pads to see which is taking off more dirt. I have two people at my theater which I cannot convert to threading on the emulsion side. These two individuals also thread so that the leader hits the floor. I have tried, but there really isn't anything I can do to make them switch (it really chaps my ass when they decide to start training others as well). Looking at the media cleaners, the pad which wipes the base side is ALWAYS significantly dirtier. I imagine it would still be dirtier even if everyone threaded the same way... like me. The base side absolutely does attract more dirt.

The biggest problem is that many don't seem to care. I'll get the "we have film cleaners on every projector, so what does it matter?" response a lot. I tell them it is my goal to not let the print get dirty in the first place if I can help it, not just attempt to clean it up when it does get dirty (which is always a much more difficult task to accomplish).

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 11-10-2008 09:42 PM

quote: Joe Redifer
hence the old programmed delay of 8 seconds

..unless you have the good ol countdown leader and frame between between "11" and "10".

This theatre that has these CNA-100's were having horrible startup due to them keep on forgetting to add that start cue, and if I put one one to do the show right, the booth monkeys would only remember that for a couple of days and still manage to fubar it up afterwards.

Thus, I reprogrammed the automation to go back to the default 7 second dowser opening on the "Cue 1" setting, and things been tons easier for them...and the patrons.

..and also do agree with Brad with his comments....seen a lot of both sides in his descripts.

-Monte

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 11-10-2008 10:42 PM

How could they mess up the start cue? Once they are on a leader, they never need to add it again. All they have to do is thread the machine. The only way to mess it up is to consciously remove the start cue physically. I don't care for motoring to a specific frame when I thread. Countdown leaders are not ideal because not all platters are the same distance from the projectors, so the motoring would be required. I also like my leaders to be as long as possible. Start cues are the proper solution.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 11-10-2008 11:42 PM

quote: Joe Redifer
How could they mess up the start cue

Do you have the FP350 cue readers?

back when I began, it was a total mess! There were more clowns than a circus up in this booth and none of them knew what they were doing along with not listening on how things were supposed to be.

This problem began and was augmented with no control from the manager-the manager didn't care on what happened, thus nothing and no-one higher up was taken seriously.

It's has since cleaned up tremendously when this plex hired an old gentleman projectionist to do filmwork and some building/booth maintenance.

Thus, I just left things as I set them and as of date, the presentations have been tons better, just that the manager problem still somewhat exists even though some of those problems of the past have been solved. Yet the booth clowns are still present,yet not as bad while the worst clowns have, thankfully, left.

I used to leave new leads for this plex to use, yet I would give them a month and those new leads were totally destroyed and tossed. Thus, I would make up their leads to use - taking 10ft of the clear framed stuff and splice that on 20 ft of old trailer, whereas the trailer was their threading leader and they're to frame in the short clear stuff.

When they would fold the tape over the leads, that cuetape would eventually tire out and wouldn't get sensed by the detector in the cue unit-and these clowns were too lazy in replacing the cuetape-why I took out that start cue in the programming and went back to default settings.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 11-11-2008 01:31 AM

I've found that if you put a single-sided splice over the cue tape, it will last longer. Also with the FP-350 you don't need an arm's length of cue tape like the manual says. The cues I apply are about as long as the tip of my pinky finger is thick.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 11-11-2008 09:32 AM

I'm sorry, but I feel like I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Redifer here on this one. Start cues are nice, but if you're running a digital pre-show, and you want to ensure a perfectly seamlessly invisibly smooth transition (aka "change over") from your DLP pre-show projector's "Thank You for watching..." outtro to the 35mm content then your staff needs to learn about the 8 second start up method. It's not that difficult to get right.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 11-11-2008 01:32 PM

In Mark's case, you pretty much have to deal with firing up the motor and cueing the leader down to the starting point. Of course with a start cue, you can make that just about any point you want. For example, you could put a piece of yellow opaque splicing tape down at 30 feet prior to the end of your leaders and always cue that to the top of the projector and press START for however long it takes to make a perfect changeover from a digital preshow. Since every one of them I've seen ends in a welcome/policy snipe, that should be easy to time out. The benefit is that you can still guarantee that the douser opens on precisely the frame you want, ever time.

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Fred Tucker
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Sugar Land, TX
Registered: Sep 2007

posted 11-11-2008 02:49 PM

Policy at my chain (the three letter one) is to thread the projector, then at show time to run the motor on and wait until the content portion of the film arrives to press start on the automation then the motor may be turned off. This is to minimize wear & tear on the projector motor (granted really just the capacitors) and the gear train. To me this makes quite a bit of sense, but I hate the sometime 40-second gap of silence.

However, it is preferred to pull leader through to where running the motor is not necessary, kinda hard to do when you thread from the bottom up though.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 11-11-2008 02:54 PM

Don't most digital pre-shows hold a looping "welcome to our shitty theater, we love showing you tacky ads" screen indefinitely until the projector starts? If not, they most certainly should. I am glad I don't have to deal with the headache (and tackiness) that is the digital pre-show.

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