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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Apr 2 Nitrate booth fire at the Stanford, Palo Alto (Page 7)

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Author Topic: Apr 2 Nitrate booth fire at the Stanford, Palo Alto Tony L. Hernandez Expert Film Handler Posts: 158 From: Windsor, CO, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 04-16-2009 04:27 AM                     I understand and respect that fact however every bit of training, research and reading I have done has indicated that the only way nitrate film will ignite is if it breaks or stops in front of the light source. I have also heard tales of it spontaneously combusting but this was not a large concern since the print spent a grand total of 1 hour in my booth and the time it was not on my bench or in my projector, it was in an steel vault with asbestos interior lining built for the nitrate days. This showing occurred in a theater (a specialty theater) with sprinklers above each projector, although if we were to run nitrate more often, would need further upgrades. There was indeed some risk involved however I did personally assess and judge the print prior to showing and if it had been in any condition less that it was, I would not have run it. Would I run a nitrate feature by myself in that booth? Most likely not. Would I run a nitrate short every month? Hell no. All things considered, it was a gamble but a very, very small one. Nitrate has been dead for 56 years so I would be surprised if I ever even hold a nitrate print in my hands again in my life.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 04-16-2009 08:01 AM                     quote: Brad Miller Once the film ignites for any reason, you can close douser or even do a quick rain dance if you like, but the fire at that point has been initiated and that's the end of it. But it's still a good idea to keep a hand on the douser; if the film should jam, or stick in the gate, and you close it very quickly, and then kill the arc, you may keep enough heat off the film to prevent it igniting. If the film does ignite, and the flame gets past the fire traps, so that you've got a whole reel on fire, forget whatever the rules used to say about shutting down generators and that sort of thing, make sure the shutters have dropped, any fire suppression system has activated, if not, pull the manual release, shouldn't take more than a second or two, and then get out. Interesting thoughts about moving the reels away from the machines.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 04-16-2009 11:51 AM                        Yep: it burns very slowly. . . . .but then it hits a reel that is tightly wound. At that point it burns so fast that it is almost an explosion. I have seen the film clip of an underground bunker that was deliberately "set." From start to finish the flame only burned 20-30 seconds. Looked light a rocket engine test in Florida. Louis  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 04-16-2009 01:23 PM                     Instead of a hand on the douser (prob the lamphouse damper handle), I'd have a pair of scissors open at the end of the upper magazine ready to snip.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 04-16-2009 01:50 PM                     One is useful before the film has ignited, to try to prevent it from doing so. The other may be useful, if you've got time, (which is where Brad's idea comes in of course, and I can see things both for and against it) if it has ignited, but the flame has not passed the fire trap and reached the feed reel. If the whole reel is on fire then get out; the fumes from burning nitrate are toxic and corrosive. In a confined space, like a typical nitrate-era box, you could be overcome by them if you don't get out.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-16-2009 02:14 PM                  I don't know why y'all are getting your panties in such a tightwad. From his posts, I'm sure Tony is a highly knowledgeable and skilled projectionist and had taken ALL the necessary precautions and steps to allow the projection of nitrate film in a group "A" gathering venue whether for just himself or for an audience: 1) Film magazines w/doors and fire traps. 2) Permission from the theatre owner. 3) Fire Dept permit to store, handle and/or show nitrate film prints in a group "A" gathering venue...empty or not. 4) Took out the required additional insurance for liability and the theatre to avoid a claim rejection should anything go wrong. ...etc. .  |  IP: Logged Tony Bandiera Jr Film God Posts: 3067 From: Moreland Idaho Registered: Apr 2004 posted 04-16-2009 02:26 PM                     I agree with Phil, lighten up people. I am currently working with a film archive lab and they handle and project nitrate a lot..it's NOT that big of a deal. Use some common sense and take precautions and you'll be fine. Most important thing is to carefully inspect the film for torn perfs or bad splices, run the lowest wattage on your lamps top get an acceptable image, make sure the gate and trap are spotlessly clean so no buildup of emulsion, etc. can cause issues..and stay right at the machine at all times. We all have to keep in mind that for many years, nitrate was the ONLY game in town...and yes there were tragic accidents, but there were also hundreds or even thousands of shows WHERE NOTHING WENT WRONG. And there have been cinema fires and accidents (although not because of the film) since. I also posted on a thread here a few years back about an experiment I did which had surprising results: take a single frame of modern safety film and light it with a match or lighter, holding it vertically. It will burn like flashpaper!! Do the same with a single frame of nitrate, and it will actually burn SLOWER than the safety film. (I repeated the test with a soldering iron to kinda duplicate radiant heat from a lamp..the results were as expected, i.e. the safety film charred and melted but did not flame, and the nitrate did catch to flame.) I do like Brad's idea.. as he pointed out, the horizontal burn of nitrate is slow enough that someone could react to cut the film in plenty of time, automatic chopper or not. I for one would not hesitate to run a full feature platter (yes I said full feature platter) of nitrate using the setup Brad describes. I do like the suggestion someone made about mounting rollers into a wiring gutter to cover and protect the film in transit. I would however put a heat-proof glass cover on it so the film can be observed at all times though.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-16-2009 03:25 PM                  Tony (Bandiera), I think you missed the point of my tongue-in-cheek post...  |  IP: Logged Tony L. Hernandez Expert Film Handler Posts: 158 From: Windsor, CO, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 04-16-2009 04:18 PM                     Oh, I'm sure he got it. It was more like tasteless sarcasm than tongue-in-cheek. Remember, one catches more flies with honey than they do vinegar. I don't know why I am being bombarded with all of the catty comments rather than the polite advice, criticism or agreements forums of this nature were created for. It all boils down to this: 1. The event that I am being torn up over happened in the past, nothing can be done to change anything about it now. 2. Everything went perfectly 3. It was at my theater and in the end, it is my decision what happens there. Back in, lets say, 1935, every town with as little as 300 people had a movie theater and they were well attended do to the absence of television sets. Every last feature, short and newsreel was run on nitrate in that era. So when you consider that huge number of theaters and the number of nitrate showings and the ratio to the number of nitrate fires, I'd say that the nitrate panic is way over done. I'm not saying that nitrate is not a hazard, but I think that everyone needs to mellow out.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-16-2009 04:25 PM                  Well Tony, DID YOU do what was outlined in my post? Somehow I doubt it. Bottom line, get over youself and OFF your high horse. Hopefully you'll grow up to be a REAL/REEL man instead of a wannabe.  |  IP: Logged Tony L. Hernandez Expert Film Handler Posts: 158 From: Windsor, CO, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 04-16-2009 04:41 PM                     I'm not going to personally patronize you by explaining what I may have done or may not have done. I think it is you who is on the high-horse judging an event and a person (myself) that you know nothing about. If you are judging my status of being a "REAL/REEL man" by my posts, which you must since you know nothing about me outside of Film-Tech, I find that quite laughable considering that in my 4 years of being registered on here and 2 years before that "lurking", I have yet to see you make any useful contributions to the forum.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-16-2009 04:54 PM                  Yawn... OBTW: You didn't post a public answer to the questions I raised... Yours in Christ...  |  IP: Logged Tony L. Hernandez Expert Film Handler Posts: 158 From: Windsor, CO, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 04-16-2009 05:06 PM                     Okay, here ya go: The only parts of your "specifications" that did not occur during the showing were the last two. They are explained in the order that you posted them: 3. No such permit was required in the town where this was screened, hence none was obtained. 4. Ya may have got me here. However none of the involved parties saw this as necessary considering the print was to me in our possession just under an hour and it is something that hasn't occurred before and likely will not again. I really don't want to exchange attacks with you, Phil. I have no idea what initially brought it on anyway. Its very childish. Let's either exchange polite advice and comments or just ignore each other.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-16-2009 05:41 PM                  Tony, I really have no ax to grind with you. But when I read your apparently uninformed, somewhat arrogant, and potentionely dangerous posts such as yours, I just gotta post a response. I admit I'm a sarcastic guy, but in all honesty, I'm well known on this site for it. At any rate, you may want to take the advice of the many people that responded to your post... I've made my point and I have nothing more to say on this subject.. Good luck to you in the future...  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 04-16-2009 06:16 PM                     quote: Tony L. Hernandez 2. Everything went perfectly Tony, I don't want to preach at you, but of all the things you say, this one really worries me. I don't know the exact conditions under which you ran this film, and can make no comment as to how great the risk was, nor will I say anything about licensing or insurance. You say 'Everything went perfectly'; well yes, it probably did, nitrate fires are rare events and were not common even when there were thousands of theatres running the stuff every night. 99%, maybe 99.9% of the time if you run a nitrate print you'll get away with it, and nothing nasty will happen. However, there is a risk, you can take various precautions to minimize it, but you can never totally eliminate it; if you run nitrate film there is a risk that it will catch fire, and as Steve has said, fire traps don't always work, so you may end up with a full reel fire on your hands. Have you seen a full reel of nitrate film burning? If it did happen, are you confident, and is that confidence justified, that no major damage would occur, and more importantly that nobody would get hurt? Maybe you are, and it is, and you could safely contain the fire, as happened in the recent case, I don't know. But 'Everything went perfectly' really isn't the right attitude. You really need to assume that the worst will happen and be sure that you could safely contain it if it did, before you even think about whether you're allowed to run nitrate.  |  IP: Logged

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