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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1 2 3 4
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Author
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Topic: Cue marks: scribe circles or grease pencil?
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Paul Burt
Film Handler
Posts: 46
From: San Francisco, CA, United States
Registered: Apr 2006
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posted 05-20-2009 11:08 AM
I've been doing changeovers since the 1970s. If cue marks need to be added because there aren't any, the print will be new. I've never seen a chopped print without cue marks. If an old print comes in with many missing frames and a bunch of scribed circles (not uncommon in old studio prints), I use grease pencil so the operator will know which cues are the ones to use. There is no other reason to put any cue marks on an old print.
I don't use grease pencil unless I have to for the reasons stated in the posts above. They tend to transfer to earlier parts of the film, and they look ugly on the screen. Scribed cues can be covered up only on dark scenes. Once they're on the film they are basically permanent. (Not that many people notice them anyway. I've had frequent experienced moviegoers ask me how I know when to change from one projector to another, totally unaware that cue marks even exist.)
Those Japanese punch holes are nothing like what you'll get from a hole punch from Staples. I've run prints with them and they're far less visible that scribed circles, and are a lot neater when projected, unless your Clint Phare scribe has a new blade.
No solution is perfect. If there's any confusion as to which cues to use, it gets noted on the inspection sheet. In any case, any projectionist doing 2K changeovers, especially on foreign films, should carefully inspect the cue marks on each reel.
Years ago, I once got a print with staples in the center of four frames as cue marks. Too much trouble to lay on clickers, I suppose.
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Jim Henk
Master Film Handler
Posts: 364
From: San Diego, CA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 11-11-2011 03:40 AM
The guy I learned from went a step further. He taught to use the cue maker (only when absolutely necessary, mind you - short ends, etc) and then if the scene was dark, in order that the cues would only be visible to you, use a grease pencil over the cues, then clean off *all* the excess. The only grease from the pencil that remained on the frame(s) would be in the etch pattern in the circle itself. The result? Proper dark and stable cues with no other marks on the screen. Conversely, if the scene was light of course, then no grease pencil, so the cues would again, blend into the scene as much as possible. To use them, simply have very good eyesight, and pay VERY close attention. Worked very well, and was as professional as possible in a calendar repertoire house with old prints of classic titles.
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Christian Appelt
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 505
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 11-14-2011 06:35 AM
I just ran a print of a 1980s Japanese film (print came from UK) that was marked with grease pencil, and the entire reel endings were contaminated by tiny particles that had been embedded into the emulsion. So if you use grease pencil, please make sure you get it off properly.
If temporary cues are necessary, I use a thin strip of opaque tape which does not leave sticky residues. A start cue should be enough, I only put a C/O cue when the scene is full of fast movement (ShakyCam, ultra-fast cutting). If you know your projector and count down, you won't need a second cue.
With subtitled prints you often can use the captions as start cues. With ten reels of "Dancer in the Dark", I had to use tape cues on two reels only because there was no dialogue.
I noticed that on many older prints there are double and triple marks because projectionists were too lazy to search properly for the printed or scribed marks, the just slap their grease pencil marks over it. During projection, these unnecessary marks usually can be seen perfectly...
With release prints, I would advise to scribe correct marks permanently. Loss of frames at reel ends has become less of a problem with polyester base. Even if the C/O cue gets chopped off, it does no harm when the print is plattered, and any competent C/O operator will recognize the missing cue and be able to handle it, either changing over without a second cue or by creating a temporary one and compensate for the shorter distance when threading.
With archival prints, no permanent cues. Making C/O cues is the main source of dirt which will spread all over the reel during a print's life. I believe Brad decribed the effect when he wrote in another thread about keeping leaders off the floor.
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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"
Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 11-15-2011 03:42 PM
As with so many areas of film projection, I expected there could be a variety of approaches to this.
Jim -- I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are describing. I'm having trouble picturing this in my head. I guess I don't see the value in having a colored circle, versus a white one. Am I missing something?
quote: Christian Appelt
With archival prints, no permanent cues. Making C/O cues is the main source of dirt which will spread all over the reel during a print's life. I believe Brad decribed the effect when he wrote in another thread about keeping leaders off the floor.
The MAIN cause? Really? Okay, I've seen some horrible changeover cues, but I've also seen MANY, MANY new prints with lab changeovers RUINED by careless plattering. And a good portion of these were observed on opening day. So I think it would be more fair/accurate to blame it on poor handling technique and leave it at that.
I'm a stickler for wearing gloves and keeping the work bench clean. I also clean head/tails before applying the cues. (No liquid cleaners on archival prints.) I believe prints leave my possession in as good or better condition than when they arrived. But, then, I suppose we would all say this about ourselves.
As for different types of cues (subtitles, etc) I'm more in favor of a standard approach, which means the same type of cue and both motor and changeover cues (not just motor).
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Jim Cassedy
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1661
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: Dec 2006
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posted 11-15-2011 09:54 PM
quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
we were not allowed to put any cues on the National Anthem
I worked at a military theater for several years too.
Once, I had some Lt.Colonel up in the booth on an
inspection tour. At one point as I was threading up the
National Anthem film, a bit of the leader touched the
floor. "DON'T LET THE STARS SPANGLED BANNER TOUCH THE
FLOOR!!" he SCREAMED at me. He wanted me to treat the
anthem film as though it was the flag itself , and I
was in no position to argue, so from that point on
I did as he wished.
I eventualy got my "revenge" though: It was customary
to run the national anthem at the begining of the show
every night. The audience would have to stand for the
anthem. (Sing-along was optional- but standing was
manditory!) They would update the anthem every few
years, and I found a whole bunch of old anthem films
stashed in a booth closet. On my last night there,
I spliced together over 1000ft of them and started
the show. The audience stood for the first anthem,
then sat down. Then the 2nd one came on and they had
to stand up again. Then they sat down- - and so on.
Some people were turning around flashing angry and/
or confused looks at the booth.
Most people "got" the joke and only one stick-in-the
mud junior officer filed a complaint. But even the
post commander, who I'd had a few minor run-ins with
previously, laughed it off when he called me in to
"rempremand" me, and wished me luck in my future
career. (as long as it was outside the military!)
LOL
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Scott Norwood
Film God
Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 11-16-2011 08:49 AM
If I can ever get a pair of foil cue readers cheaply, I want to try installing them in a manual booth, with the cue detector wired to flash a light bulb, rather than control an automation system. That way, foil tape could be used on the edge of the film to trigger the light bulb, which would serve as the changeover cue for the operator. I have often thought that this would be the easiest way to make non-visible, non-permanent cues.
Another idea would be to set up some way to flash a light bulb based on DTS timecode. This would, of course, only work with DTS prints (and would thus be useless for pretty much all archive prints).
Personally, I tend to go with grease-pencil cues (which seem to have become something of a standard in recent years...they now seem more common than Clint Phare-style cues). This will be controversial, but I usually leave them on the print when shipping it out, with the idea that the next operator can use or remove them depending on his needs. I am not a fan of the white gloves for the reason that Steve mentions (they get dirty and make film handling more difficult).
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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God
Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 11-16-2011 01:00 PM
quote: Jim Henk
Actually, I'd love to find a cue maker today. Haven't ever seen one being offered.
You just haven't asked the right person. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote: Steve Guttag
I'm not a big fan of gloves...I've yet to see any benefit because they get so dirty so fast...I just keep my hands clean and my fingers off the face of the film.
Same here. I used gloves on a few prints but found them lacking, especially as they rob your fingers of the sensitivity to detect edge damage too.
quote: Jim Cassedy
I worked at a military theater for several years too.
Once, I had some Lt.Colonel up in the booth on an
inspection tour. At one point as I was threading up the
National Anthem film, a bit of the leader touched the
floor. "DON'T LET THE STARS SPANGLED BANNER TOUCH THE
FLOOR!!" he SCREAMED at me. He wanted me to treat the
anthem film as though it was the flag itself , and I
was in no position to argue, so from that point on
I did as he wished.
.... They would update the anthem every few
years, and I found a whole bunch of old anthem films
stashed in a booth closet. .....
I am not surprised by the LtC's reaction as the NA was sacred as far as AAFES (Army-Air Force Exchange Service) was concerned. I had the additional pleasure in that the numbered Air Force Commander (a two-star General) was resident on base and a HUGE movie fan. If you screwed up the opening of the show or blew a changeover you got read out in the booth and if you really screwed up you'd be in his office the next day as well. The flip side was that he really was a fair but tough bird to work for. If you did well, he let you know. If you screwed up, and it was honestly a mistake or accident he would minimize the damage to your career. But if you were a f-up or didn't care, he'd throw the book at you.
We had one operator who could never start the show right, and after allowing the "two-pop" to go out into the house on the Anthem one too many times, he got booted from the booth.
As for the NA trailers, did you have the one with a bunch of stills that ended with some kid's pageant where the boy dressed as a big flower looked totally pissed off?
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