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Topic: Getting New Amplifiers

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-06-2011 06:20 PM

Sure...give Sam the credit...all he did was pick out the amp model (get the larger one...you can't go wrong)...what about saving you from the horrible fate of having Ashly amps? [Cool]

Enjoy.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-06-2011 07:15 PM

Yes, Steve. Thank you! [Cool]

I have a story to tell but I don't know if I should tell it in the clear:

Spoiler Alert - Click to Toggle

I printed out the forum message where you said that Ashly amps were horrible pieces of fire-belching crud and showed it to my supervisor. (Not the main boss.) He took the message and showed it to the guy who was trying to sell us the Ashly amps. The next time I saw him the guy barely said two words to me.
It was a busy day so I'm sure he just didn't have time. Besides, he gets to bill us for the time it will take to come and bless the setup so he'll get a few bucks out of it.

Sam is the one who had to deal with the bureaucracy that is Mercyhurst. Brad knows it too. This place is just too difficult to explain it words. It has to be experienced. [Wink]

Truthfully, everybody here deserves a bit of thanks. [thumbsup]

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 04-06-2011 10:22 PM

Yes, the older qsc's are fine.

Ashly was sold, still answers the phone for me, repairs modules for me, and, though not so much in Cinema, is still very much in business.

I'll buy those amps, Mark. Still quite a high demand from high end and studio (UK) users. Reliable, quiet, and no distortion. louis

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 04-06-2011 10:56 PM

Congratulations on the new amps Randy! Having been a part of doing some sound upgrades for a client in SoCal last summer, I know how it feels to have new capable toys to play with. Our client staff was overjoyed on opening night with the new sound of their screens.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-18-2011 01:56 PM

Just for follow ups:

We've got the sound system all tuned up and working the way we want it. We're getting lots of compliments on the sound.

Where, once, my boss was apprehensive about spending the money, he's starting to warm up to the idea that it was a good move.
(As I knew he would. [Wink]

)

Now, it's time to work on getting surround sound in the room.
I told the boss that the CP650 has the outputs for the channels but, unless they are hooked up to amps and speakers, that signal just disappears into thin air and we're missing, literally half the sound.

More to come...

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-11-2012 12:54 PM

Just an update...

While the QSC amps and CP650 have been working perfectly for more than half a year, we recently installed new amplifiers for the house sound system.

Against my advice and after showing this message thread to my supervisor, he still bought Ashley for the house system. They have only been working for two or three months.

Guess what?

I'm sitting here, monitoring our presentation of the Met Opera HD broadcast (Gotterdamerung) and, in the quiet passages, I can hear noise coming from the speakers. It's a buzzing noise that sounds lie a buzz saw. It's not very loud but it's there and it's annoying as hell!

This is the third time this has happened in the last couple-few weeks.

At first, I thought it was my cinema system going bad. I went nuts trying to find the source of the noise. Finally, I completely shut down the entire cinema system, processor, amplifiers and all.

The noise was still there!

I turned the cinema system back on then shut down the house system amps, one by one and the noise went away.

I let the Ashly amps settle for a minute and turned them back on. They quieted down but they started making noise again a couple of days later. This has repeated a couple of times since then.

I just shut the amps off and I'm leaving them off until the opera is over. I don't want them making noise and disturbing the show.

I told my boss about this problem a couple of days ago but got a lukewarm response, skeptical at best.

It looks like Steve's "fire-belching crud" prediction is turning out to be true and I'm the one who is paying the price even though I advised against Ashly in the first place.

I've got a half a mind to turn the damn things back on and let them make noise so that somebody can complain about it but it makes me sick to the stomach to think of fucking up a show like that. [Frown]

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 02-11-2012 01:58 PM

Randy, methinks your boss is either getting kickbacks or blowjobs from that schmuck who sold the Ashlys to you guys. [sex]

And I am surprised you haven't thought of this solution to the Ashly problem yet, given your avatar pic.....

A loose neutral in the power serving those amps can cause a most unfortunate accident... *cough* *cough*. [evil]

A technique that has been used in the past and is quite effective...and hard to prove it wasn't an accident.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-11-2012 03:57 PM

Not kickback, as far as I know, but cronyism and herd mentality.

They don't understand, nor do I think they have the capacity to understand. I would call them stupid but they are too ignorant to be stupid.

Yeah, I've thought of blowing things up, once or twice but, as ornery and rigid as I can be, I just don't have enough evil in my blood to kill a show even if I say I want to.

My avatar picture was taken in the electrical room that services this theater. (That shot was dummied up. Those cables are all loose tails, not connected to anything.) The room is concrete block bunker down in the basement. You don't know how many times I've thought of throwing the main service disconnect right before a show then locking the door to the room and breaking off a key in the cylinder. (And adding a couple of drops of Super Glue for good measure!)

I could never really do that. I just go find a place to lie down until the feeling goes away.

But, that's the kind of shit I have to put up with.
I don't know why I stuck it out in this hell hole for 15 years.

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Tim OBrien
Film Handler

Posts: 36
From: Vassar, MI /USA
Registered: Jan 2010

posted 02-11-2012 07:11 PM

I've been watching this thread with (now vested) interest, having just replaced my Ashlys with QSC DCA series amps (3x DCA1622 biamped, DCA1824 and DCA3422) and the DCM10D. I can't boast of the same results as Randy and I'm frankly quite disappointed.

The first DCM arrived with a bad touch switch and was returned for replacement. The new one had an LED burn out the first week (actually, I discovered if you push very hard on the LED it lights). This would sure suggest to me some serious quality problems. I think this is the worst monitor I've ever used. I can't hear an intelligible word from it and toggling between processor and amps is like night and day on the screen channels. The sound coming from the amps side is muddy and unintelligible.

I've got plenty of sound and lots of headroom, but it's just not..."right" and I think the Ashlys sounded better when the crossovers were all working properly - which was almost never. I'm willing to concede that other work is probably required here to maximize the potential of this equipment, but for my money I had expected more.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-11-2012 07:34 PM

Tim, did you actually get into the monitor with your computer and set the proper crossover? Those aren't plug-and-play ya know.

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Tim OBrien
Film Handler

Posts: 36
From: Vassar, MI /USA
Registered: Jan 2010

posted 02-11-2012 09:39 PM

Brad, I set the crossovers at 500hz and the default delay for JBL 4675C.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-11-2012 10:47 PM

Sorry your system isn't working as well as you planned. [Frown]

I haven't used the DCM monitors so I can't advise you much. However, from reading this thread over again, it seems to me that they are one of those products that some people swear by but other people swear at.

Also, from what I read, I gather that they have to be set up the right way or else they won't work right. (Notwithstanding the quality control issue you had.)

All I can say is to go over your system with a fine-toothed comb and make sure that everything is hooked up correctly and that the settings are right.

Don't be afraid to spend the time to make sure your B-chain is calibrated correctly. B-chains are one of those things that people think they can let slide but it can be amazing just how much a difference a well-done EQ job can make. Installing new amplifiers into a sound system then skipping the B-chain adjustment is like building an addition on your house then refusing to put carpet on the floor.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 02-11-2012 10:50 PM

Tim, got to ask the next question which comes to mind: for the monitor to amp interconnects, did you use the HD15 cables QSC sells or did you use regular VGA cables? VGA cables are NOT recommended as they are not constructed properly for this application, QSC's have the audio send lines individually shielded from the other wires.

Something is not right here.

Who did the install? Did they perform a COMPLETE "A" AND "B" chain after installing the new equipment?

What cinema processor? How is it wired to the DCM? Are you accidentally using the crossovers in the processor as well as in the monitor?

This tells me there is a serious problem on the A and/or B chain side:

quote: Tim OBrien
I can't hear an intelligible word from it and toggling between processor and amps is like night and day on the screen channels. The sound coming from the amps side is muddy and unintelligible.

The DCM's I have installed (well over 200 at this point) have always worked and sounded better than most other monitors out there.

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Tim OBrien
Film Handler

Posts: 36
From: Vassar, MI /USA
Registered: Jan 2010

posted 02-12-2012 03:34 PM

Thanks for your input and I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread, Randy! To answer some questions, I'm using a CP650 (no Cat 791) connected to the DCM via a heavy duty (AWG20), shielded DB25 cable with straight pin-through. I'm also using the QSC data cables and Speakon connectors.

At no time has there been a comprehensive analysis of the system components, the room acoustics or a complete A and B-chain calibration. The reasons why might be of interest:

Technician #1 ignored my request to replace the Ashly components with QSC because he "didn't like them". He instead suggested that I have the Ashly crossovers and certain amps removed, rebuilt and installed, necessitating three separate trips. He pulled the existing 2-way crossovers in the R and L screen channels and temporarily replaced them with 3-way crossovers (!) and a spare amp that hummed so badly I had to disconnect it. I could see no reason to place a band-aid on equipment that was obsolete. Technician #1 refuses to work with me any more.

Technician #2 ordered the QSC equipment and performed the install but did only a very quick EQ after I complained that the dialog was muddy and the system seemed "out of balance".

Technician #3 was dispatched by #2 because he had more experience with QSC products. We did another quick EQ at the processor using the internal RTA and a single mic. No A-chain. We were able to clean up the dialog but there's still something missing, and the monitor is still a problem.

Most of the time I'm running with the fader at 7 but this occasionally has to be turned higher. If I'm using my OPPO BDP-95 connected to the processor through the analog outputs, the fader must be turned up to 9.

I don't think I'm being too critical. I agree that this system should have a proper and thorough A-chain and B-chain calibration. It seems to me that many technicians are being spread thin because of the demand for digital installations and so much of the rest of this work is becoming "not worth the time". I'm not sure what to do now...

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 02-12-2012 06:58 PM

Tim, I understand your pain and I hate to be the one to have to break this news to you, but the solution here is going to be very difficult, so brace yourself. Stop hiring those techs. They either don't have the know-how or are too lazy to do the job right.

I say it is a difficult solution because I have this feeling there are politics involved.

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