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Author Topic: cinema speaker brands Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-07-2012 07:28 PM                     No...it was always a piece of crap! "In its day" ..there was the Altec 288 and later 299 (and currently the 399)...they were/are FAR superior to the DH1/DH1A. Horn wise. the HP9040 had/has its good points...I noted that Dolby even used JBL drivers on those horns to avoid the EV sound. Personally, I prefer the MR94 (Altec) over all other CD horns (at least of its day). The sound was simply uniform anywhere in the coverage area. Likewise, nothing touched the MR594 for the smaller format horns but if you are going to go down to 500Hz...you really need a large horn or you can't have pattern control.  |  IP: Logged Cameron Glendinning Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 845 From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia Registered: Dec 2005 posted 11-08-2012 04:02 AM                     quote: Steve Guttag Dolby even used JBL drivers on those horns to avoid the EV sound I was recently offered a tour of a mixing suite that used this combination, funnily enough the technician explained it was because it sounded better than using the JBL Bi Radial horn. The JBL 4" compression driver is still my favorite. My personal side by side comparison tests between brands and technology gave me different results than others here. I compared a Cinerama modified multicell horn (sap filled and lead lined)and compression driver with the DH1 with the mid sized flare and found the results similar. The Altec driver was then placed on a standard multicell horn and the EV to me was notably superior. We live in a society where the majority of the population is visually discerning but most of the population are simply not audio aware. Musicians especially classically trained tend to appreciate realism far more, simply because of there own real life experience, yet your typical cinema goer simply wants to understand every word of the movie and typically not too loud. Those cinema technicians who do line ups with the X curve tend to be discerning too. I heard a rumor that the SMPTE is thinking of getting rid of it as the science behind it seems to have no basis, anyone else heard this?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-08-2012 09:15 AM                     I am a member on said SMPTE committee...the science behind the "X" curve is sound (read ANSI/SMPTE 202). It is peer reviewed and has stood up the rigors of time. No claim has ever been made that it was the only or even the best way to tune a cinema. It is "A" way and one that is repeatable using obtainable technology that enhances the cinema experience. The fact that it has lasted this long is testament to its value. While all standards/RP/EGs are subject to periodic review, it does not mean that they will be radically changed on each review. Discussions do come up with using alternative methods for tuning cinemas but as of yet, nobody has put forth a suitable alternative that has met the criteria discussed above. Remember too, the goal is to have a uniformity such that presuming everyone follows the standard, the results will be predictable and uniform from cinema to cinema.  |  IP: Logged Jarod Reddig Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 513 From: Hays, Ks Registered: Jun 2011 posted 11-08-2012 11:36 AM                     Very impressive Steve.  |  IP: Logged Bajsic Bojan Expert Film Handler Posts: 190 From: Ljubljana, Si, Eu Registered: Aug 2008 posted 11-08-2012 02:37 PM                     Since the brands mentioned on this forum are not the ones that are often offered here (except for JBL), i am trying to get info on EAW or Martin Audio lines of cinema speakers. Anyone use them? Good or bad experiences? Both of those companies have decent reputation in the live sound territory but does anyone use their cinema boxes? They seem to be priced competitively and the specs seem in order. Just wondering how much and why do they not get any use? Since talking about 'the best', where is Meyer Sound? They do make some pretty darn good and high profile cinema speakers also.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-09-2012 01:21 AM                     My personal experiences with EAW have be positive. I find their bottom end a little tubby but overall, they are good speakers, well made and as passive crossovers go, they seem to do as good or better than most others. There is no such thing as "best" though. Sound remains subjective and as clearly seen in the above discussion, one can have a wide range of opinion on what sounds good/bad. My personal dislike for the EV sound is not shared by everyone (and there are specific examples of EV that I don't like...it does not carry throughout the brand). As to why some get more use than others...that would a long discussion too. Some of it has to do with momentum ("we've always used brand ABC") and some has to do with how much presence the company has put forth in the cinema specific industry. When EAW was at all of the trade shows and in the Trade Magazines, they were more popular (in the States) but each company has to decide what and how much resource they want to put forth in order to capture a percentage of a market. If you think about it...there have been really only THREE big manufacturers of cinema equipment that "others" have tried to take a piece of the market away (again, using the USA as an example)...Altec Lansing set the standard up until about 1980. Then there was/is JBL and now I would say the QSC is either the dominant or on par with JBL. EV had a pretty decent usage in the '90s but it was only a piece away from JBLs domination. For a worldwide presence, it takes a pretty massive effort to support stuff everywhere and Harmon International is such a company to do that...they also make their own drivers too and can really control the product from beginning to end. But there really isn't a best or worst...any such claim is purely opinion.  |  IP: Logged Brian Bowman Film Handler Posts: 1 From: Arlington, VA, USA Registered: May 2006 posted 11-09-2012 08:17 AM                     Greetings all, Generally speaking, I'm a complete newbie here (and somewhat of a dilettante in terms of film handling) - but on this particular topic I feel I have something to offer. Coming from a background in audio engineering (specifically, concert sound and room "tuning"), I've spent a great deal of time dealing with sound reproduction on both micro and macro levels. IMHO, hands down, the best cinema sound product out there currently is the Meyer sound "Acheron" series. If the theater opts to go the extra distance and set it up with the EXP option, it's completely untouchable in terms of the linearity of it's performance. Cinema presents a unique opportunity for those of us in the sound reproduction world; the opportunity to delay the visual in order to accommodate real-world time alignment difficulties created by wavelength differentials. To my knowledge, Meyer is the only company that's doing this. For those interested in the hows and whys, here's a link to a great interview with John Meyer re: linearity in cinema systems: Meyer Cinema Linearity (Lots of good, short youtube videos on varying aspects available from this page as well). Hope this is of some interest! -Brian  |  IP: Logged David Buckley Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 525 From: Oxford, N. Canterbury, New Zealand Registered: Aug 2004 posted 11-10-2012 01:47 AM                        quote: George Murray Out of the 5 major cinema speaker manufacturers being jbl qsc klipsch sls and electrovoice which one would everyone say is the top of the line... I too wondered why Meyer are not mentioned. In the world of pro audio, none of those brands would be considered to be (being polite) on par with Meyer, and I know that Meyer make speakers intended for cinema use. Surely someone uses them? Are SLS really a well known cinema speaker brand?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-10-2012 09:05 AM                     Cinema, being a quantity based sound industry, tend to be a bit more "thrifty" their equipment. Also, a cinema is not judged as heavily on their sound systems as say a "sound company" that may be doing music shows. You don't see much Labgruppen in cinemas either but pro audio/touring companies will swear by them over the popular brands used in cinema. Just like Meyer...you don't see much (though there is some) LabGruppens in cinemas due to cost...they are almost a non-starter. Then you look at a typical "cinema" speaker. They are often purpose built with a price point in mind...they (most) would not stand up to the rigors of touring. But if you focus the design for a specific application you can get a lot of bang for the buck. If you have not auditioned a QSC SC-4x4 series speakers, I encourage you to. It is a very smooth sounding speaker that does not tend to leave its mark on the sound. And then, compare that to a properly speced Meyer. And then (and here is where the business part comes in)...ask yourself..."how many more buckets of popcorn/tickets will switching to Meyer sell?" And remember...the audience never gets to A/B speakers like you might and, sadly enough 80-90% of them wouldn't change their patronage or even know the difference based on that one factor. Now, if the theatre is using junk and/or set up poorly and has poor acoustics to begin with...then one can indeed lose patronage (even if one has exclusivity...nowadays...they'll just wait for home release on video). Presumably, someone that is going going to spend the money on the Meyer system will ALSO put them in a room that is worthy. An overwhelmingly large number of cinemas have really bad acoustics and it is for little to no reason. The incremental cost of getting a cinema acoustics right is relatively trivial...You'd think I was asking for the moon when I ask for insulation above the ceiling tiles, for instance...not only will it help the acoustics it would save them on the HVAC costs by not heating/cooling the cavity above the tiles. So that is why many don't think Meyer and the higher end of the pro audio line of sound reproduction. It is cost and if they are going to go in a direction (quality wise), it is going to be in a largish quantity that has to be paid back via popcorn, soda and part of the ticket sales.  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 11-10-2012 10:30 AM                       SLS barely makes a dent in cinema. For one thing, the sales distribution is sketchy at best. They like to sell line arrays but there is no real point in all but the biggest venues and even then I question the need or the supposed superiority of this method. Also, the company seems to have changed hands a time or two and this makes buyers nervous. It's a tough and small market. Bose tried to crack it and failed miserably. The reasons; wrong speaker type not suitable for the application, and strange cultish marketing. This is a classic case of a giant company trying to sell the name and not an actual product designed for cinema.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-10-2012 11:49 AM                        I have worked with some very good live-sound guys recently on a project (the dreaded "mixed-use facility") and it's interesting to see how attitudes differ in that industry. They love Crown amplifiers, while the cinema folks mostly love QSC, for example (they can't both be right...can they?). Also, they don't seem to get the idea that a cinema B-chain is something that is done once (correctly) and left alone, not something that gets modified for every film that plays in the venue. The idea of only being able to adjust a main fader during a show is completely foreign to them. On the other hand, they have some very good acoustical measurement tools and techniques, most of which go beyond what is typically used for cinemas. They clearly have more tools to deal with "bad" rooms, whereas cinema systems generally depend on having a "good" room to begin with.  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 11-10-2012 06:45 PM                       QSC and Crown are both good brands. They are just power amps after all, the least complex part of the audio chain. It's power output and noise/distortion figures, and reliability. Both have accessories for the intended market. As to line arrays vs conventional speakers, my comments were strictly directed to use behind a perforated screen.  |  IP: Logged Tony Bandiera Jr Film God Posts: 3067 From: Moreland Idaho Registered: Apr 2004 posted 11-11-2012 01:08 PM                     Good to see you here Sam.. long time since we chatted last. No word from our favorite pain in the behind client so I guess my last visit made them happy. Back on topic, so you have installed the SLS speakers? Can you elaborate on them for us? And re the amplifiers: I will disagree with you a bit on that as I have found QSC's reliability to be far above Crowns, both early and late models. (QSC's only real bump in the road was those Series Three amps with the removable modules...remember the power resistor that kept melting its own solder connections and falling out?) Plus QSC's customer service has always been phenomenal for me at least.  |  IP: Logged Jake Spell Master Film Handler Posts: 294 From: Johns Island SC Registered: May 2009 posted 11-11-2012 01:36 PM                     Slightly off topic... I had a live sound engineer tell me that old QSC's could literally be washed out. If it got noisy take off the cover and remove the transformer and hose it out. Let it dry for a few weeks and it was good as new. Has anyone else ever herd this? Hes not the typical guy to bs on something like this. I can also say that Iv only ever seen one Crown amp in a cinema were as almost EVERY amp Iv seen is a QSC, some pushing 15+ years.  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 11-11-2012 04:23 PM                       Can't say I have any recent hands on experience with SLS. Not a big fan of the company as there was a lot of snake oil marketing which sent me running in the other direction. As to Amps, there's no real excuse for unreliable amps. Crown did have a bout of unreliable amps after years and years of bullet proof performance. I believe this was sorted out quite a while ago. So it all comes down to features and price point, customer service, etc.  |  IP: Logged

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