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This topic comprises 7 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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Topic: cinema speaker brands
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 11-20-2012 10:01 AM
quote: Steve Guttag
If you have not auditioned a QSC SC-4x4 series speakers, I encourage you to. It is a very smooth sounding speaker that does not tend to leave its mark on the sound. And then, compare that to a properly speced Meyer. And then (and here is where the business part comes in)...ask yourself..."how many more buckets of popcorn/tickets will switching to Meyer sell?" And remember...the audience never gets to A/B speakers like you might and, sadly enough 80-90% of them wouldn't change their patronage or even know the difference based on that one factor.
While I completely get that your statement above is reality, it's also a slippery slope that I think too many theaters get stuck on.
Rationalizing saving money because "no one will notice" is how curtains were lost, THX certifications became meaningless, and carpets and seats are used way beyond their useful life. Day old popcorn tastes the same, as long as it's warm and salty, right?
This is probably why I would fail as a theater owner, but I would not look at the decision as "what will sell more popcorn" but rather I would decide based on my own impressions of performance vs. price. What I choose will reflect upon me and my operation. If speaker A sounds really good for $1000 (for example), and speaker B sounds just a small bit better, but it costs $1500, I would have to figure out if that small difference was worth the extra $500 to me.
If I had my choice about seeing a movie in a theater equipped with A, would I be happy, or should I bite the bullet and know that in the long run of the life of that investment, I'll be glad I spent the extra money?
People with home theaters make this type of decision every time when they buy equipment for their own setups. Except it's their own money, and no one's paying to come see the movies being shown, so it's even more personal.
If I were to pick equipment that would be good enough for my wife and kids to be happy with, I would have very different equipment. In contrast, by choosing high quality equipment (without being ridiculously irresponsible about costs), I'm delivering a presentation that not only am I happy with, but also one that sets the standard for them to appreciate what a movie experience can be.
The appreciation level of the audience can be raised simply by providing them with an excellent experience. Once they have the best, how will the substandard stuff at the theater down the road sound to them?
That's why I would probably fail in the theater industry. But if I did, I would have failed knowing that everything I did I was proud to put my name on. I'd like to think that there's a realistic balance to be had between costs and performance, but also that (perhaps naively) making good choices will increase the chances of success. Cutting corners is a sure way to failure in my book.
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Scott Norwood
Film God
Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 11-20-2012 12:00 PM
quote: Scott Jentsch
If speaker A sounds really good for $1000 (for example), and speaker B sounds just a small bit better, but it costs $1500, I would have to figure out if that small difference was worth the extra $500 to me.
I love this sentiment, but it assumes that you _have_ the $500 to spend. Lots of theatre owners don't, especially in smaller towns. Even if they thought that the $1500 speaker would sell more tickets and pay for itself, they still might not have the working capital to buy it.
And, of course, we're not really talking $500, either. We're talking about $500 x 3 x number of screens.
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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 11-20-2012 08:19 PM
With Brand being the issue in this thread, cinemas tend to have another factor which is the x curve. Having personally built several custom speaker systems which were critically acclaimed by film makers, sound mixers and the Australian sound guild I can not help but point out the differences and inconsistency of the eq process.
We had three separate eq's done by three different individuals from different companies of the same auditorium (that I had personally custom built the speakers for and had advised on the acoustics of the room at design stage) all within a 21 day period and the differences where not subtle at all when watching the exact same piece of film in a great acoustic room!
Now no speaker is perfect so when we audition home speakers in the showroom to music we already know, some brands sound better/different than others with some styles of music over others, this is due to different frequency response and colorization that each speaker possesses.
I personally think that the difference between speaker brands found in cinema is a lesser issue, as the person who lines it up ultimately has a bigger effect on the audio outcome.
quote: Steve Guttag
the science behind the "X" curve is sound (read ANSI/SMPTE 202). It is peer reviewed and has stood up the rigors of time.
There are several forums where the science is being seriously questioned. I am surprised that none of this has appeared here on film tech. Here are some quotes.
quote:
Brian McCarty
Comment posted May 13, 2012 @ 00:17:45 UTC (Comment permalink)
We've had some terrific discussions underway in the SDCTV forum - in fact we received very positive comments from the TC on the high level of participation in this group, although just newly formed.
We are busy organizing sessions for the 133rd Convention in San Francisco, and one that has been proposed is a session on the "Science of the X-Curve", which is the underpinning for cinema sound around the world via ISO 2969.
We have raised hands from a raft of opponents to the X-Curve. We would like however those engaged in this process on the other side of the fence to come and defend the use of this technology, and perhaps propose modifications to it if they deem them appropriate.
We welcome engineers from Dolby, DTS, the Theater Owners, or anyone else with working experience on this issue to step forward now so we can arrange a useful and information discussion as part of our SDCTV workshop program for San Francisco.
Brian McCarty
quote:
Philip Newell
Comment posted April 26, 2012 @ 13:47:58 UTC (Comment permalink)
A great service that the AES group could do to the industry would be to study the whole history and concept of the X-curve and its application to cinema sound, in a scientific and objective manner.. The principle evolved in the early 1970s, when the thinking was stiill only just emerging from optical mono soundtracks, and the loudspeaker systems then available were often very limited in their output capability, especially at high and low frequencies. What is more, in those days, our knowedge of psychoacoustics was scant by the standards of today, and the analysis and measuring equipment for room acoustics was rudimentary.
There is now a growing body of opinion within both the motion picture and television industries that the X-curve can no longer be justified in any scientific manner, and that its application to cinema sound is also an obstacle to achieving the better sound that modern-day equipment and working practices could deliver. In short, its time has expired.
The Members of the AES have the wherewithal to study the concept in an independent and knowledgeable manner, and an independent report from the Technical Committee on Sound for Digital Cinema and Television would be very valuable, whether an AES Standard were to be issued or not.
A further subject requiring in-depth study is the question of what dynamic range can be reasonably supported in different listening/viewing conditions. Strong evidence now exists to show that what may be considered an appropriate sound level, whether it be deemed to be either realistic or desirable, depends to a very great degree on the size of and distance to the screen. It no longer seems to be reaonable to calibrate all cinema mixing rooms to the same SPL, from a 100 cubic metre room for mixing trailers and commercials to a large dubbing theatre of 3,000 cubic metres. Larger screens seem to stimulate the brain to expect more level, and vice versa.
Mixing to a 20 metre-wide screen in a huge room can realistically support a dynamic range of 70 decibels, or more, yet this would not even be pleasant in a home theatre, or even in a small room in a multi-screen cinema. There is therefore little wonder that the cinema-going public is often heard to complain that the soundtracks are too loud, but an inevitable consequence of reducing the level can often be to lose the intelligibility of the low-level dialogue. There is thus no easy solution available to projectionists.
The transfer of soundtracks to media for home-viewing is another casualty of the lack of attention that has often been paid to these subjects.
The questions of the X-curve, the standard calibration levels and the supportable dynamic range are therefore matters that need urgent, and independently objective, re-assessment, and the AES is perhaps the body most well-equipped to tackle them.
[To keep the record straight, I should state that I am a Member of the Audio Engineering Society, a Fellow of the Institute of Acoustics, and a Member of the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers. I am not partisan to any group: I merely want to get to the truth, so that we can all get on with doing our jobs better.]
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