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Author Topic: Letterbox variations
Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 06-29-2006 02:51 AM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The L.A. first run of "Woodstock" wasn't even at the Dome... Hear-say + memories often = [bs]

EDIT:
Oh, wait...do you mean the Dome in Las Vegas? Why not look up the original ads on microfilm of the Las Vegas Review-Journal? (I can predict the result...)

"Woodstock" and its alleged 70mm status was accounted for here. It's under "1970," footnotes 3 & 19.

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
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 - posted 06-29-2006 03:40 AM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As you predicted, there are no public-access microfilm records for the LVRJ for any year prior to the late '90s. If you know the right people access can be gained, but those people don't like snoopers. So it would be difficult to impossible to check old movie ads here.

But the American Cinematographer ads talking about the 70mm Woodstock are something I do remember clearly. Shouldn't be too difficult to check back issues at a decent library. Of course I realize that existance of those ads doesn't prove that there actually was a public release of a 70mm print.

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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
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 - posted 06-29-2006 01:42 PM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
1961

Carthage In Flames (1)
AFI: Foreign release in Super-Technirama 70.

The Savage Innocents (1)
AFI: Although some sources list the gauge as Technirama 70, the onscreen credits list Technirama.


1963

Hercules And The Captive Women (1)
AFI: Originally shown in 70mm Supertechnirama.


1964

The Carpetbaggers (1,15)
AFI: Blown up to 70mm for some roadshow presentations.

The Long Ships (1)
AFI: Filmed along the coast of Yugoslavia in Technirama 70.

The Pink Panther (1)
AFI: Press material indicates that the film was photographed in 70mm Super Technirama.

Zulu (1,11)
AFI: gauge: 35 & 70
Widescreen/ratio: Super-Technirama 70

1965

Genghis Khan (1,11)
AFI: Released in West Germany in both 70mm and 35mm versions in Apr 1965 as Dschingis Khan ; running time: 128 min; in Yugoslavia in 1965 as Dzingis-Kan ; British release: Aug 1965.

The Great Wall (1)
AFI: Released in Japan in 1962 as Shin no shikotei in 70mm Super Technirama; running time: 160 min.

1967

Thoroughly Modern Millie (16,23)
AFI: Blown up to 70mm for some roadshow presentations.

1968

The Jolson Story [re-issue] (1,3)
AFI: On 14 Aug 1969, a re-issued version of the film in 70mm format began a roadshow engagement in London. The 70mm re-issue had its American premiere in Aug 1975.

The Young Girls Of Rochefort (1,3)
AFI: Opened in Paris in Mar 1967 in 70mm as Les demoiselles de Rochefort ; running time: 120 min.

1969

Those Daring Young Men In Their Jaunty Jalopies (1,3)
AFI: gauge: 35 & 70
Widescreen/ratio: Panavision

The Young Rebel (1,3)
AFI: Produced in 70mm Totalscope.

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
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 - posted 06-29-2006 03:33 PM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Paul Mayer
there are no public-access microfilm records for the LVRJ for any year prior to the late '90s.
Paul...where are you looking? Online? I've researched Las Vegas stuff before on microfilm at University of Nevada Las Vegas, University of Nevada Reno and at the Library of Congress. All have full sets going back to the early 20th century.

Jeffry...before you spend too much time on this, let me stress that I'm well aware that many of the suspect titles had foreign 70mm engagements. The genesis of the "mystery titles" project was to clarify what played in the U.S., principally L.A. and New York. The fact that so many sources, including but not limited to the maligned Carr & Hayes "Wide Screen Movies" and the equally awful Richard Haines book (notice how often their "1" & "3" footnotes appear), make unsubstantiated claims of 70mm print availability in the U.S. is a tremendous source of frustration for anyone interested in a serious history of the subject.

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Paul Linfesty
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From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
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 - posted 06-29-2006 04:15 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Michael Coate
Those other two titles had their narrow aspect ratio segments altered somewhat for their laserdiscs and DVDs.

Didn't they just use the full-width "scope" image for the DVD of HORSE WHISPERER?" I had assumed the opening segments had origniated in scope, because the theatre I saw it at was off frame and the negative splices showed throughout.

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Bill Gabel
Film God

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From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
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 - posted 06-29-2006 05:32 PM      Profile for Bill Gabel   Email Bill Gabel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Paul Mayer
I'm pretty sure Woodstock played at the Cinerama Dome here in 70mm.
Woodstock opened in the Los Angeles market at the National General's Fox Wilshire Theatre in Beverly Hills in 35mm 4-Track Stereo.
Paul the film you might be thinking of was "The Concert for Bangladesh" (1972), which was shot in 16mm and blown up to 70MM. Which opened at the National Theatre in Westwood and the DeMille Theatre in NYC in 70MM.

I have that issue of American Cinematographer somewhere at home. But in the recent release on DVD of "Concert for Bangladesh" there is a short featurette about how they put the film together and how they built the first optical printer to blow up 16mm to 70MM in 1972 for this film. That is two years after the release of "Woodstock" in 1970.

There where two films I remember opening in a 4x3 ratio and then opening up to scope image. "Superman" right before the main titles and "The Road Warrior". Mike the projectionist at the Chinese Theatre in Hollywood at the time had it timed to open the masking up as the main titles hit.

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
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 - posted 06-30-2006 04:24 PM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bill Gabel
But in the recent release on DVD of "Concert for Bangladesh" there is a short featurette about how they put the film together and how they built the first optical printer to blow up 16mm to 70MM in 1972 for this film. That is two years after the release of "Woodstock" in 1970.
I don't think the optical printer built for "The Concert For Bangladesh" proves that there could not have been 70mm prints for "Woodstock." (I have my doubts but for other reasons.)

Recall that much of "Woodstock" consists of composite images (multiple images of different shapes and sizes on screen at one time), so wouldn't it have been composited in something other than 16mm before being optically enlarged? I've read/heard accounts (second-hand, of course) that the composite format may have been Techniscope or 35mm anamorphic, formats of which were being routinely enlarged to 70mm by the time of "Woodstock's" release.

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Mike Heenan
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From: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
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 - posted 06-30-2006 04:54 PM      Profile for Mike Heenan   Email Mike Heenan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Abba the Movie also has the 4x3 image opening and then full scope image a little bit later (not sure if this was blown up or not).

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Los Angeles, California
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 - posted 06-30-2006 05:05 PM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Heenan...I already mentioned "ABBA: The Movie"!!! First post, page two. [Mad]

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David Stambaugh
Film God

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From: Eugene, Oregon
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 - posted 06-30-2006 07:06 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I saw "Concert for Bangladesh" in 70MM at the National. My memory of it is hazy, but one thing I recall is the theater was empty except for me.

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Los Angeles, California
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 - posted 06-30-2006 08:32 PM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Paul Mayer
Also remember seeing print ads in American Cinematographer talking about how well the 16mm-to-70mm blowups came out.
An advertisement or an article? The October 1970 issue of American Cinematographer, included a series of articles, a few key passages of which I'll paste in below.

quote:
16mm to 35mm---But Which Way to Go?

All of the footage for "WOODSTOCK" was, of course shot in 16mm.

We knew from the start that we were going to use multiple-images in certain sequences and that we wanted the film to end up in the so-called 'CinemaScope' format---that is, a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. The question was: how to get all those opticals into it and blow it up to 35mm with the least loss of quality?

We eventually made tests at several optical houses, but the first one we went to was Pacific Title. There's a very bright guy who works there named Dick Bond and he came up with an excellent suggestion as to the way to go. We had originally assumed that we would go from the ECO original directly to a 35mm anamorphic negative, which meant that we would have had to use anamorphic lenses in positioning and printing our opticals---putting the squeeze in at that point, while selecting the sizes and positions of the various images. It was just too much.

Bond came up with the suggestion that we go from our ECO original directly to a Techniscope negative, with the opticals put in, flat-to-flat, all in one generation. That would mean that the only thing standing in the way of the release prints would be the 35mm anamorphic matrices that Technicolor would make in the course of their standard Techniscope printing process. They would put the squeeze in at that point and there would be no additional generations involved---no inter-negatives or inter-positives to dilute the quality. I might add that Technicolor has, far and away, some of the best anamorphic lenses in the country.

At any rate, that's the way we elected to go---and it was a good decision.

quote:
Getting the Sounds Just Right

We were to end up with 4-channel stereophonic sound---a left, center and right channel, plus a surround channel.

All of the passages above were quotes from "Woodstock" director Michael Wadleigh. After I locate it (hopefully today or tomorrow), I will quote Wadleigh again from an interview he gave to Kodak's magazine 30 years later where every film format reference is given as 70mm and every stereo sound reference is given as six-track.

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
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 - posted 07-01-2006 12:40 AM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Read my posts or your own quotes of me again Michael. In two posts above I used the term "ads." So yes, it was an advertisement in American Cinematographer that I am remembering, apparently incorrectly. If I recall correctly, that issue had a still from the IMAX space film, Voyage To the Outer Planets on the cover, which was the reason I read that particular issue.

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

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 - posted 07-01-2006 09:18 AM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Back when I saw the 1978 Superman movie, some older theatres still had curtains that would completely close between shows. Some "thoughtful" projectionists started the movie with the big, velvet curtains revealing a 4:3 (approximately) aspect ratio to match the black-and-white introduction to the movie. But the movie included curtains to the sides of the black-and-white image. Therefore, there were curtains projected on top of the real curtains! And it drove me nuts even as a 12-year-old kid!

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
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 - posted 07-01-2006 08:44 PM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Paul Mayer
Read my posts or your own quotes of me again Michael. In two posts above I used the term "ads." So yes, it was an advertisement in American Cinematographer that I am remembering, apparently incorrectly. If I recall correctly, that issue had a still from the IMAX space film, Voyage To the Outer Planets on the cover, which was the reason I read that particular issue.

Relax, Paul, there's nothing out of line in seeking a clarification especially given your "batting average" in the memory department! At any rate, I found the back issue you identified (August 1973) and found a two-page Kodak advertisement on pages 984/5. The verdict: you're half correct... an ad did appear in the issue featuring the cover you mentioned. But the content of the advertisement in question is regarding "The Concert For Bangladesh" (as Bill Gabel suspected) rather than "Woodstock." The text of the ad is:

quote:
Blow up 16mm to 70mm? Impossible.

"At least that's what Cecil and I [Don Weed of Film Effects of Hollywood] first thought when [producer/director] Saul Swimmer handed us the Eastman 16mm film footage from 'The Concert For Bangladesh.' We had our reservations, but we told him we'd try.

Then we started experimenting. Saul wanted to go to 70mm to get maximum stereo effect from the 14-track music tapes. Because the 16mm format is in the wrong aspect ratio to be blown up directly to 70mm wide-screen, we realized that we would lose about 50% of our original 16mm frame area... assuming that it could be done at all. No one had ever tried it, but we found the answer. We adapted a wet-gate system to an existing 65/70mm optical printer at Film Effects of Hollywood. Then we scanned each image vertically 'on the fly' as we were printing. Accurately.

"Our first trial experiments without the wet-gate were weak and scratchy. But we saw enough quality in the results to be convinced that the excellent Eastman 16mm negative would hold up going to 70mm. When we went to final process, the results were beautiful. Cecil, Saul and I were astounded. So was everybody else.

The last step was release prints. Those we hand-made by going directly from the 16mm Eastman color negative film to 70mm Eastman color print film 5385.

"We had done something probably no one else had ever done before. With the right materials, nothing's impossible in this business."


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Mike Heenan
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
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 - posted 07-01-2006 10:08 PM      Profile for Mike Heenan   Email Mike Heenan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Coate: Sorry, I dont memorize every single post ever made by you on this site. Take it easy bud. [Roll Eyes]

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