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This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5
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Author
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Topic: Disney Rep says current "Dcinema""goodenough?"
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John Eickhof
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 588
From: Wendell, ID USA
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 02-05-2001 09:15 PM
Gordon, of course the picture we had was limited by the screen size, however when you consider that HD resolution will be less than one fourth of the D cinema standard, I will bet that the 70 foot picture will look very good if not GREAT! In fact, if you have ever seen any demos of the D cinema system you will remember how exceptionally clear and sharp the image is, way better that a film image, in fact I thought it looked too good! almost artificial! You also have to take into account the more efficient light path, this JVC machine had a 1.6 KW bulb I metered over 21 footlamberts of white screen with a Spectre Spot Meter! The existing equipment in the booth uses 2.5KW lamps to get 18 footlamberts! Thus, a precise optical system with a 4-6 KW lamp will light up a 70 foot picture with no trouble at all. You will see, the future is among us! Mike, The Dolby E type sound is the current digital format used by broadcasting for both studio, editing, and final downstream to broadcast stations, it is a pure digital format with a standard of eight available audio channels and many synch & timecode options, it makes for seamless and noiseless sound cutting (editing) as well as instant recognition of synch and channel ID. It is easily converted in the digital domain to 5.1 dolby or a multitude of other formats. This is a system that will not be in the D cinemas, it is primarily designed for studio / editing, and production work.------------------ John Eickhof President, Chief Slave Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc. P.O.Box 258 Wendell, ID. 83355-0258 208-536-5489 email: jeickhof@nteequip.com
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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler
Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 02-06-2001 03:08 AM
Just to clarify, there are several digital cinema systems out there, all of varying quality, which should be kept in mind when discussing this.
- For starters, there are the current DLP projectors, which have a maximum resolution of 1280x1024, and are what have been used in all the demonstrations over the past year or two for "Star Wars: Episode I", "The Perfect Storm", "Toy Story 2", and others. I've seen this system in action twice now, and quite simply, it sucks. The pixels look unacceptably large. The amount of detail in the image is too low. (If I may borrow a bit from Scott Norwood, your eyes end up searching for details that simply aren't there.) These DLP projectors also do not handle extremes of contrast (very brightly light or darkly light scenes) very well. Overall, it has too much of that "video look" to pass as a viable movie presentation system, in my opinion. Nevertheless, I believe this is what Phil Barlow of Disney is talking about when he referrs to "current" digital projectors. If he thinks they are "good enough", he has very low standards indeed.
- Texas Instruments is supposedly working on a higher resolution version of their DLP chip that will also have a better contrast range. I've been hearing about this for a while now, but it's yet to materialize. I believe they are aiming for exactly HDTV resolution, which is 1920x1080. That is also the resolution that George Lucas is using for "Star Wars: Episode II" (he did all the principal photography for this movie using a Sony HDTV camera modified with Panavision lenses). It would also be approximately equal to the resolution of most digital SFX shots in today's movies, which are usually done at "2K" resolution (although I wish it were more, since I can often see the individual pixels in such shots).
- Then there is JVC's D-ILA system. This was first demonstrated at around the same time as the "Star Wars: Episode I" DLP demos, and the reaction was not very favorable. Instead of giving up, though, they worked on it. A few months ago, they announced that there would be a newer, higher resolution (2048x1536, according to JVC's website) version of the chip coming soon, although it seems the M-4000 projector used at the demo John saw was still the older, lower resolution version of the D-ILA chip (1365x1024 according to JVC's website).
- Finally, there is something I have heard very little about, but which nevertheless sounds promising: laser projection. A company called Silicon Light has been working on this. They claim it can easily meet and/or exceed HDTV's 1920x1080 resolution, and because it uses lasers as its light source, it does not require the use Xenon lamps to provide light, unlike DLP or D-ILA. It also promises to have better color accuracy than other systems (due to the inherent color accuracy of lasers). I have not heard much about this system being tested for movie theater projection, but it sounds like it could surpass both DLP and D-ILA in quality and convenience. I did see a news story about Sony licensing technology from Silicon Light a couple of months ago, but the story did not specify what it was going to be used for (possibly rear-projection HDTV sets?)
Objectively; just from looking at the numbers, it seems that all of these system still have a ways to go before they match the resolution of even 35mm film, let alone 70mm film. Have a look at this resolution chart from Kodak's Cinesite for comparison. (While you're at it, have a look at this document at Kodak's main site for more information on why film is currently better than digital. Section 3 is particularly interesting.) Subjectively; from having seen DLP presentations, as well as very, very good 35mm and 70mm presentations, I don't think the purely subjective visual experience of digital cinema has caught up to film yet. That's not to say that it won't eventually, but people like Phil Barlow and George Lucas seem to think digital systems are "good enough" as they stand today. I strongly disagree. On the other hand, quality is not what is driving this -- it never was. This is about money. Can't you just hear the studio accountants and executives smacking their lips and rubbing their hands together at the idea of all the money digital cinema will save them? They must be thinking, "It's just data; distributing it will be practically free! And we can charge the same rental fees and ticket prices as we did before ... we'll be rich, rich, rich!" Ugh. Speaking as someone who is very demanding when it comes to movie presentation quality, I am wary of what may come in the next couple of years. I honestly wouldn't mind some of today's medium quality digital systems got installed in theaters at first -- if they eventually upgrade when the technology gets better. Given what we know about theater companies and movie studios, I'd say that's a pretty big "if". I'd rather they wait until the technology really gets good before rushing into this, so that we don't have to worry about that particular "if". However, based on statements like those of Mr. Barlow of Disney, it sounds like they aren't going to wait. That worries me. ------------------ Aaron Haney Professional Complainer Apple Computer, Inc.
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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 02-06-2001 06:18 AM
John --- who sponsored the demonstration you attended? How did you receive the invite? What picture/sound material was shown?For a 10'6" x 18'10" matte white screen, 1600 watts should be more than enough to get 16 footlamberts with 35mm film, so the theatre's existing system is not operating at full efficiency. You said they are getting 21 footlamberts on a 200 square foot screen with only 1600 watts --- which says they have decent efficiency. But, a 16:9 image on a 70 foot screen would be 2756 square feet, and require over ten times the power, or over 16,000 watts, so I would disagree that "a precise optical system with a 4-6 KW lamp will light up a 70 foot picture with no trouble at all." ------------------ John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging Eastman Kodak Company Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419 Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243 E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
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John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-06-2001 02:37 PM
Ok ... devil's advocate time ...I can go out right now, spend about $5000, and buy a digital XGA projector for my home with 1280x1024 resolution that will directly connect to a DVD player, and as soon as a HDTV-resolution DVD format hits the market, we'll be in the curious situation where home video equipment has a higher resolution (1080 vs 1024 vertical lines) then theatre equipment. If 1280x1024 is "good enough" to replace 35mm film in theatres, then, pardon my asking, why should I patronize theatres anymore? I'm in full control of the presentation quality at home, and my popcorn has real butter.
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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 02-06-2001 02:57 PM
There is general agreement that Digital Cinema MUST offer better image quality than can be obtained in the home. Many laptop computer displays already offer more pixels than the 1280 x 1024 projectors currently available, and HD DVDs and HD monitors / home projectors will likely be a mass market item within a matter of years.The SMPTE DC 28 Study Groups have prepared their reports, which will lead to the next step of establishing Working Groups to actually develop standards. If you want to participate in the SMPTE engineering activities, you need to complete a "Statement of Participation to Become a Committee Member": http://www.smpte.org/engr/ But when all is said and done, IMHO, "Film Done Right" has been able to fill huge screens with superior images for almost 50 years, since the dawn of the widescreen era. ------------------ John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging Eastman Kodak Company Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419 Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243 E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
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John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-06-2001 03:06 PM
John Wilson writes:> and just what the heck did they 'explode' the grain in the > Sorcerer's Apprentice for? It looks rediculous! Let me take a guess ... According to Richard Haines book, the original negative for Fantasia was made using the successive-exposure process -- meaning that each frame was exposed three times on the original negative ... the red record, then the green record, then the blue record. Then, in order to make the technicolor printing matrices, the negative would be run through an optical printer set up to expose every third frame, so as to make three, normal length matrices, each of which would be used to print a single color. For the 1956 re-release, the negatives were combined to make a single Eastmancolor negative, which was then color-separated into three matrices. This would have added a large amount of grain. Future re-releases were on Eastmancolor film, and have probably all faded. So Disney probably had three options available to them: 1) Go back to the original, successive-exposure negative, scan it, and combine every three frames to get a single color frame. (expensive, plus any uneven shrinkage of the original nitrate negative would make this difficult, impossible, or overwhelmingly expensive.) 2) Go back to the 1956 Eastmancolor negative, unless it's faded by now (strong probability) 3) Scan a 35mm Technicolor release print. 3a) A 1940 nitrate print 3b) A 1956 safety print (with the additional grain because the negative was pointlessly combined and re-separated. I wonder what they did.
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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999
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posted 02-06-2001 06:58 PM
The problem is the pencil-pushers (probably like Phil Barlow of Disney) are the ones who decide this kind of thing. They will keep pushing unwanted technology on to the general public, and eventually the pulbic will accept it. More so than many other industries, the motion picture history has several examples of better processes' being discontinued with out much public complaint (4-track, 70mm, dye-transfer, etc.)I feel that the average movie-goer does not give much thought to the quality of a picture, unless it is really bad. So, while there will be a few instances at first where people will complain about the quality of an e-projector theater, the e-projector manufacturers will improve it just enough to become acceptable, even if it's quality is less than a 35mm print. The pencil-pushers will then hire advertisers to sing the about the wonders of "DIGITAL!"
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John Eickhof
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 588
From: Wendell, ID USA
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 02-06-2001 08:48 PM
John, I was hired by Grass Valley Group & the Colfax Cinema to insure proper integration of the dolby E type sound into the existing 5.1 analog system in place at the Colfax, the whole premise of this demo was not to show the digital image, but to give the journalists from around the world a preview of the newest Grass Valley products, not limited to the Profile series of Digital Data Servers. The press was at GVG for a couple of days viewing new product for the upcoming NAB convention, as you most likely know, GVG is a long standing innovator in television & broadcast electronics, they are only developing the local (in theatre) servers at this time. the actual projection of images will be up to JVC, TI and others...Thus the demo was a hands on sample of how the GVG Profile unit works, it is basically the 'automation' in as much as you can select on a keyboard in the boxoffice, managers office or by ethernet from the owners home exactly what title will play in what theatre at what ever time on as many screens as you want! This device downloads the actual picture & sound data and holds it for playback at the operators descretion...The demo was fully sponsered by GVG with assistance from JVC & Dolby. Again, I have to say that I am a 'film person' and the ethyloid is in the veins, but this technology is not far off! When you are at Showest this year you can get a closer look at the GVG Profile server, it will be in most every control rack on display with any D-Cinema equipment. Gordon, I see no need to argue, I know film's attributes, but we alone can not stop progress! As for the 'projection room' of the future...look for a small 'clean room' with only a sound rack, data server rack, and a projection unit, this will all be off limits to daily personnel as the programming will be done by the management staff, no interaction will be necessary in this room by anyone except the maintenance tech, who will be doing DAILY service chores Thus, again it will be up to the owners to properly train & pay qualified people to daily service these devices! ------------------ John Eickhof President, Chief Slave Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc. P.O.Box 258 Wendell, ID. 83355-0258 208-536-5489 email: jeickhof@nteequip.com
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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 02-06-2001 10:54 PM
Still, I say we aren't going to know the "problems" associated with any digital movie system until we have a big enough installed base and have run them under real-world conditions long enough.With film, we know EXACTLY what those problems are and we know how to deal with them. Just look at the Wankel engine. In the 70's, that was supposed to be the "savior" of the energy crisis... fewer parts, less maintanence and more fuel efficient. Now there are few, if any cars still being made with Wankels. Heck! If I had one, where would I go to get it fixed? Same thing with the "Tucker Torpedo". I think swiveling headlights on a car is a GREAT idea. Where are they now? In museums. (and junkyards) My problem is that everybody seems to have this idea that digital movies are going to solve all of the problems in the projections business. I say they aren't. They are just going to substitute one set of problems for another.
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