Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Disney Rep says current "Dcinema""goodenough?" (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Author Topic: Disney Rep says current "Dcinema""goodenough?"
John Eickhof
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 588
From: Wendell, ID USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-05-2001 09:15 PM      Profile for John Eickhof   Author's Homepage   Email John Eickhof   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon, of course the picture we had was limited by the screen size, however when you consider that HD resolution will be less than one fourth of the D cinema standard, I will bet that the 70 foot picture will look very good if not GREAT! In fact, if you have ever seen any demos of the D cinema system you will remember how exceptionally clear and sharp the image is, way better that a film image, in fact I thought it looked too good!
almost artificial! You also have to take into account the more efficient light path, this JVC machine had a 1.6 KW bulb I metered over 21 footlamberts of white screen with a Spectre Spot Meter! The existing equipment in the booth uses 2.5KW lamps to get 18 footlamberts! Thus, a precise optical system with a 4-6 KW lamp will light up a 70 foot picture with no trouble at all. You will see, the future is among us!
Mike, The Dolby E type sound is the current digital format used by broadcasting for both studio, editing, and final downstream to broadcast stations, it is a pure digital format with a standard of eight available audio channels and many synch & timecode options, it makes for seamless and noiseless
sound cutting (editing) as well as instant recognition of synch and channel ID. It is easily converted in the digital domain to 5.1 dolby or a multitude of other formats. This is a system that will not be in the D cinemas, it is primarily designed for studio / editing, and production work.

------------------
John Eickhof President, Chief Slave
Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc.
P.O.Box 258
Wendell, ID. 83355-0258
208-536-5489
email: jeickhof@nteequip.com

 |  IP: Logged

Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 02-06-2001 03:08 AM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just to clarify, there are several digital cinema systems out there, all of varying quality, which should be kept in mind when discussing this.


  • For starters, there are the current DLP projectors, which have a maximum resolution of 1280x1024, and are what have been used in all the demonstrations over the past year or two for "Star Wars: Episode I", "The Perfect Storm", "Toy Story 2", and others. I've seen this system in action twice now, and quite simply, it sucks. The pixels look unacceptably large. The amount of detail in the image is too low. (If I may borrow a bit from Scott Norwood, your eyes end up searching for details that simply aren't there.) These DLP projectors also do not handle extremes of contrast (very brightly light or darkly light scenes) very well. Overall, it has too much of that "video look" to pass as a viable movie presentation system, in my opinion. Nevertheless, I believe this is what Phil Barlow of Disney is talking about when he referrs to "current" digital projectors. If he thinks they are "good enough", he has very low standards indeed.

  • Texas Instruments is supposedly working on a higher resolution version of their DLP chip that will also have a better contrast range. I've been hearing about this for a while now, but it's yet to materialize. I believe they are aiming for exactly HDTV resolution, which is 1920x1080. That is also the resolution that George Lucas is using for "Star Wars: Episode II" (he did all the principal photography for this movie using a Sony HDTV camera modified with Panavision lenses). It would also be approximately equal to the resolution of most digital SFX shots in today's movies, which are usually done at "2K" resolution (although I wish it were more, since I can often see the individual pixels in such shots).

  • Then there is JVC's D-ILA system. This was first demonstrated at around the same time as the "Star Wars: Episode I" DLP demos, and the reaction was not very favorable. Instead of giving up, though, they worked on it. A few months ago, they announced that there would be a newer, higher resolution (2048x1536, according to JVC's website) version of the chip coming soon, although it seems the M-4000 projector used at the demo John saw was still the older, lower resolution version of the D-ILA chip (1365x1024 according to JVC's website).

  • Finally, there is something I have heard very little about, but which nevertheless sounds promising: laser projection. A company called Silicon Light has been working on this. They claim it can easily meet and/or exceed HDTV's 1920x1080 resolution, and because it uses lasers as its light source, it does not require the use Xenon lamps to provide light, unlike DLP or D-ILA. It also promises to have better color accuracy than other systems (due to the inherent color accuracy of lasers). I have not heard much about this system being tested for movie theater projection, but it sounds like it could surpass both DLP and D-ILA in quality and convenience. I did see a news story about Sony licensing technology from Silicon Light a couple of months ago, but the story did not specify what it was going to be used for (possibly rear-projection HDTV sets?)

Objectively; just from looking at the numbers, it seems that all of these system still have a ways to go before they match the resolution of even 35mm film, let alone 70mm film. Have a look at this resolution chart from Kodak's Cinesite for comparison. (While you're at it, have a look at this document at Kodak's main site for more information on why film is currently better than digital. Section 3 is particularly interesting.)

Subjectively; from having seen DLP presentations, as well as very, very good 35mm and 70mm presentations, I don't think the purely subjective visual experience of digital cinema has caught up to film yet. That's not to say that it won't eventually, but people like Phil Barlow and George Lucas seem to think digital systems are "good enough" as they stand today. I strongly disagree.

On the other hand, quality is not what is driving this -- it never was. This is about money. Can't you just hear the studio accountants and executives smacking their lips and rubbing their hands together at the idea of all the money digital cinema will save them? They must be thinking, "It's just data; distributing it will be practically free! And we can charge the same rental fees and ticket prices as we did before ... we'll be rich, rich, rich!" Ugh.

Speaking as someone who is very demanding when it comes to movie presentation quality, I am wary of what may come in the next couple of years. I honestly wouldn't mind some of today's medium quality digital systems got installed in theaters at first -- if they eventually upgrade when the technology gets better. Given what we know about theater companies and movie studios, I'd say that's a pretty big "if". I'd rather they wait until the technology really gets good before rushing into this, so that we don't have to worry about that particular "if". However, based on statements like those of Mr. Barlow of Disney, it sounds like they aren't going to wait. That worries me.

------------------
Aaron Haney
Professional Complainer
Apple Computer, Inc.

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-06-2001 06:18 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John --- who sponsored the demonstration you attended? How did you receive the invite? What picture/sound material was shown?

For a 10'6" x 18'10" matte white screen, 1600 watts should be more than enough to get 16 footlamberts with 35mm film, so the theatre's existing system is not operating at full efficiency.

You said they are getting 21 footlamberts on a 200 square foot screen with only 1600 watts --- which says they have decent efficiency. But, a 16:9 image on a 70 foot screen would be 2756 square feet, and require over ten times the power, or over 16,000 watts, so I would disagree that "a precise optical system with a 4-6 KW lamp will light up a 70 foot picture with no trouble at all."

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

 |  IP: Logged

Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-06-2001 08:13 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So TIs whizbang projector is not even really "out" yet, and it is obsolete and being replaced by a better one (shades of computerism) I'm glad I didn't pop for the $115k only to find out a better one is on the way! Do they offer free upgrades?

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

 |  IP: Logged

John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-06-2001 02:37 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok ... devil's advocate time ...

I can go out right now, spend about $5000, and buy a digital XGA projector for my home with 1280x1024 resolution that will directly connect to a DVD player, and as soon as a HDTV-resolution DVD format hits the market, we'll be in the curious situation where home video equipment has a higher resolution (1080 vs 1024 vertical lines) then theatre equipment.

If 1280x1024 is "good enough" to replace 35mm film in theatres, then, pardon my asking, why should I patronize theatres anymore? I'm in full control of the presentation quality at home, and my popcorn has real butter.

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-06-2001 02:57 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is general agreement that Digital Cinema MUST offer better image quality than can be obtained in the home. Many laptop computer displays already offer more pixels than the 1280 x 1024 projectors currently available, and HD DVDs and HD monitors / home projectors will likely be a mass market item within a matter of years.

The SMPTE DC 28 Study Groups have prepared their reports, which will lead to the next step of establishing Working Groups to actually develop standards.

If you want to participate in the SMPTE engineering activities, you need to complete a "Statement of Participation to Become a Committee Member":
http://www.smpte.org/engr/

But when all is said and done, IMHO, "Film Done Right" has been able to fill huge screens with superior images for almost 50 years, since the dawn of the widescreen era.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


 |  IP: Logged

Joe Grace
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: Maine
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 02-06-2001 03:01 PM      Profile for Joe Grace   Email Joe Grace   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would hate to see film go away, everyone here would, but I think we got a long time before it goes away all together. One good reason is just that it costs too much to buy the equipment and install. I havent seen digital cinema, there are no places to see digital cinema in Maine, but from what I heard it isnt that impressive, so it needs some more work.
One thing that comes to mind is making illigal copies of movies. It wouldnt be very difficult for someone to walk into a movie theater with a DV deck and make a perfect digital copy of a movie. Is encription being used? If it is, it can always be broken. It is true that people walk into movie theaters with cameras but the quality is poor. Is encription being used curently in Digital Cinema?


Joe

 |  IP: Logged

John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-06-2001 03:06 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Wilson writes:

> and just what the heck did they 'explode' the grain in the
> Sorcerer's Apprentice for? It looks rediculous!

Let me take a guess ...

According to Richard Haines book, the original negative for Fantasia was made using the successive-exposure process -- meaning that each frame was exposed three times on the original negative ... the red record, then the green record, then the blue record. Then, in order to make the technicolor printing matrices, the negative would be run through an optical printer set up to expose every third frame, so as to make three, normal length matrices, each of which would be used to print a single color.

For the 1956 re-release, the negatives were combined to make a single Eastmancolor negative, which was then color-separated into three matrices. This would have added a large amount of grain.

Future re-releases were on Eastmancolor film, and have probably all faded.

So Disney probably had three options available to them:

1) Go back to the original, successive-exposure negative, scan it, and combine every three frames to get a single color frame. (expensive, plus any uneven shrinkage of the original nitrate negative would make this difficult, impossible, or overwhelmingly expensive.)

2) Go back to the 1956 Eastmancolor negative, unless it's faded by now (strong probability)

3) Scan a 35mm Technicolor release print.

3a) A 1940 nitrate print

3b) A 1956 safety print (with the additional grain because the negative was pointlessly combined and re-separated.

I wonder what they did.


 |  IP: Logged

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-06-2001 05:36 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Eickhof I saw Bicentenial man when it opened on a 58 footer and it sucked. The theatre has so many complaints the screen was masked down twice to eventually 40'
The projector no sits ideal in the smallest theatre having been pulled from service on the second week of 102 dalmations with no reasons given and a film print replaced it
The technology isn't even close to being there

 |  IP: Logged

John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 02-06-2001 06:58 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The problem is the pencil-pushers (probably like Phil Barlow of Disney) are the ones who decide this kind of thing. They will keep pushing unwanted technology on to the general public, and eventually the pulbic will accept it. More so than many other industries, the motion picture history has several examples of better processes' being discontinued with out much public complaint (4-track, 70mm, dye-transfer, etc.)

I feel that the average movie-goer does not give much thought to the quality of a picture, unless it is really bad. So, while there will be a few instances at first where people will complain about the quality of an e-projector theater, the e-projector manufacturers will improve it just enough to become acceptable, even if it's quality is less than a 35mm print. The pencil-pushers will then hire advertisers to sing the about the wonders of "DIGITAL!"

 |  IP: Logged

Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-06-2001 07:55 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm so tired of hearing the word "DIGITAL" I could puke. Just for a second try to think of something that ISN'T---"DIGITAL". God they even have "DIGITAL" tire preasure gauges. I wish someone would come up with a new buzz word, quick.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

 |  IP: Logged

John Eickhof
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 588
From: Wendell, ID USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-06-2001 08:48 PM      Profile for John Eickhof   Author's Homepage   Email John Eickhof   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, I was hired by Grass Valley Group & the Colfax Cinema to insure proper integration of the dolby E type sound into the existing 5.1 analog system in place at the Colfax, the whole premise of this demo was not to show the digital image, but to give the journalists from around the world a preview of the newest Grass Valley products, not limited to the Profile series of Digital Data Servers. The press was at GVG for a couple of days viewing new product for the upcoming NAB convention, as you most likely know, GVG is a long standing innovator in television & broadcast electronics, they are only developing the local (in theatre) servers at this time. the actual projection of images will be up to JVC, TI and others...Thus the demo was a hands on sample of how the GVG Profile unit works, it is basically the 'automation' in as much as you can select on a keyboard in the boxoffice, managers office or by ethernet from the owners home exactly what title will play in what theatre at what ever time on as many screens as you want!
This device downloads the actual picture & sound data and holds it for playback at the operators descretion...The demo was fully sponsered by GVG with assistance from JVC & Dolby. Again, I have to say that I am a 'film person' and the ethyloid is in the veins, but this technology is not far off! When you are at Showest this year you can get a closer look at the GVG Profile server, it will be in most every control rack on display with any D-Cinema equipment. Gordon, I see no need to argue, I know film's attributes, but we alone can not stop progress! As for the 'projection room' of the future...look for a small 'clean room' with only a sound rack, data server rack, and a projection unit, this will all be off limits to daily personnel as the programming will be done by the management staff, no interaction will be necessary in this room by anyone except the maintenance tech, who will be doing DAILY service chores
Thus, again it will be up to the owners to properly train & pay qualified people to daily service these devices!

------------------
John Eickhof President, Chief Slave
Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc.
P.O.Box 258
Wendell, ID. 83355-0258
208-536-5489
email: jeickhof@nteequip.com

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-06-2001 10:54 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Still, I say we aren't going to know the "problems" associated with any digital movie system until we have a big enough installed base and have run them under real-world conditions long enough.

With film, we know EXACTLY what those problems are and we know how to deal with them.

Just look at the Wankel engine. In the 70's, that was supposed to be the "savior" of the energy crisis... fewer parts, less maintanence and more fuel efficient. Now there are few, if any cars still being made with Wankels. Heck! If I had one, where would I go to get it fixed?

Same thing with the "Tucker Torpedo". I think swiveling headlights on a car is a GREAT idea. Where are they now? In museums. (and junkyards)

My problem is that everybody seems to have this idea that digital movies are going to solve all of the problems in the projections business. I say they aren't. They are just going to substitute one set of problems for another.

 |  IP: Logged

Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 02-06-2001 11:36 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here are my thoughts on this. I feel that without support from the film companies in paying for the instalations in the 32,000 plus screens in this world it will be a long time befor it will become wide spread. If lets say the units to install for one screen is $75,000 and you multiply that by 32,000 screens you have a grand total of 2.4 billion dollars that somebody is going to have to pay. That is not going to happen because the film companies don't want to pay for it. Now on a basis of useing the systems in a slow introduction over the course of 20 years you could set them up like 70MM operations and have special presentations. That would be more suited in my opinion. As long as film projection and sound systems can be installed for less than $30,000 that is what will be used. With the slow down of construction now in progress. I do not see anyone putting out the tons of money that will be required for some time to come. What hollywood needs to do is concentrate on making better films. From what I have read when the next Star Wars film is released you will see some amazing quality improvements on the prints that will be issued. Better color, sharpness and contrast all because it was filmed with digital cameras. Maybe Hollywood needs to stop worrying about how it is projected and concentrate on how movies are photographed. Then transfer them to film. Nothing is going to prevent someone from making an illegal copy of a film. As small as camcorders are now you can sneak them into the theater and film it right off the screen. Also like music becomes bootlegged because someone on the inside got a copy out can happen the same way with film. Probably even easier than one would think.

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-07-2001 10:03 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Darryl Spicer said: "From what I have read when the next Star Wars film is released you will see some amazing quality improvements on the print that will be issued. Better color, sharpness and contrast all because it was filmed with digital cameras."

Most professional cinematographers would take issue with that statement! Check out the heated discussions on the on-line Cinematographers Mailing List (CML).

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.