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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Disney Rep says current "Dcinema""goodenough?" (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: Disney Rep says current "Dcinema""goodenough?"
Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 02-07-2001 10:23 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

Just quoting something that I read. I believe it was one of the producers of the film who made that coment not lucas himself. Will be interesting to see how good the quality will be when the prints show up in 2002. I just believ that there are alot of people who want this digital thing to happen too fast in an industry that can't afford it and has enough problems paying their light bills.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-07-2001 10:34 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Did anyone pick out the scenes in "Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace" that were shot with the prototype Sony digital camera? IMHO, the quality loss was obvious in both digital projection and in film prints, even worse than the scenes that were heavy with digital effects and CGI.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 02-08-2001 05:07 PM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John -- do you have a link for the Cinematographers that you mentioned above?

Pat

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-08-2001 05:19 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The CML web site is http://www.cinematography.net/

There should be instructions there on how to subscribe to the mailing lists. Be warned that this is a fairly high-volume list (20-30 messages per day, text only), but the signal-to-noise ratio is high.

Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 02-09-2001 02:37 AM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John P., I have say that in regards to "Star Wars: Episode I", the entire movie looked so fuzzy and pixelated that I was unable to spot the digital filming when I saw it in the theater. Of course, I wasn't looking for the digital shots then, because I had not heard about them yet. After I heard about the use of digital cameras, I saw a post in rec.arts.movies.tech that gave away which scene it was used in, so I never had a chance to try and spot it on my own. On the other hand, it is actually so visible that when I watched a VHS copy of the movie at a friend's house the other day, I could easily tell when the shots came up (since I was now looking for them). When that scene came up in the theater, I just assumed it had been shot on film, and ended up looking as bad as it did due to poor computer effects work (just like the rest of the movie).

"Episode II" probably won't look quite as bad though, because the digital shots in "Episode I" were done with a 60i camera, and "Episode II" was shot with a 24p camera (except for any over/under-cranked shots, which had to be done on film, since the 24p camera can only shoot at 24 frames per second, ha!) In any case, if you watch "Episode I" on VHS, you can just look for some shots that have a very "interlaced" look to them. The colors are also noticably duller than the rest of the movie. (Not that "Episode I" had particularly good color in the first place.)

Regarding film prints of the upcoming "Episode II", I believe what is being hyped up is the fact that all the duplication negatives will come straight off a laser recorder, eliminating all the inter-positive, inter-negative steps that normally are part of the release printing process. However, that won't be first the first time that has been done, will it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't that already been done with animated features (which are finalized on computers), and wasn't it done with "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" (which was scanned and color corrected on computers at Cinesite)?

------------------
Aaron Haney
Professional Complainer
Apple Computer, Inc.

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-09-2001 06:25 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Aaron:

Here are some links to the Kodak Cinesite work on "O Brother, Where Art Thou?":
CLICK HERE
CLICK HERE TOO
AND DON'T FORGET TO CLICK ON THIS ONE

The original negative was digitally scanned at very high resolution, and after the digital image manipulation and enhancement, output back to film using laser output. Many have commented on the superb image quality.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 02-09-2001 06:19 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>Just look at the Wankel engine. In the 70's, that was supposed to be the "savior" of the energy crisis... fewer parts, less maintanence and more fuel efficient.<<

...and a big time polluter. Thats the reason that the Wankel was basically DOA in the US. In 1969, GM and Ford were planning to have Wankels as the standard engines in the Vega and Pinto, respectively, but there were too many problems with emissions and they went with conventional piston engine designs. The Wankel at that time with its 4-barrel carburetion system wasnt as fuel-efficient as you might think either. Fuel injection has combated both of these drawbacks, however.

The Toyo-Kogyo [Mazda] company of Japan was the only commercial automaker to successfully market a Wankel-powered car to the US market (there were European-produced Wankel cars as well, most of them prototypes or 'concept' vehicles, however.)
Wankels were also used in limited service in European aircraft and in marine applications.

>>Now there are few, if any cars still being made with Wankels. Heck! If I had one, where would I go to get it fixed?<<

Only one that I know of still [back] in production is the 2001 Mazda RX8. Mazda Wankels can be repaired at many places to include all Mazda dealers...

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion of that evil being, D-cinema.

-Aaron



Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2001 08:25 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Aaron, that's exactly my point. People thought it was the latest and greatest thing. It turned out to be a big, fat turkey.

I'm not saying that the same thing is going to happen with D-Cinema, but I think all the people who are pushing for it ought to go back and read a few history books.

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2001 08:28 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
History has a habit of repeating itself sometimes rather painfully
The dedication to colonial williamsburg I always thought was appropriate
"So the future may learn from the past"

John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 02-09-2001 11:05 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I feel D-projectors are here to stay. You can't really say that proponents of D-projectors are ignoring the past; previously tried bits of technology can many times be re-worked into something practable. Separate sound and picture (Vitaphone) was considered too difficult to deal with, yet now is acceptable (DTS.) And whoever thought that there would be three competing companies making digital sound systems. Several industry bigwigs said that unless only one standard was agreed on, there would be too much confusion in the market place, resulting in digital sound not becoming successful.

The quality of D-projectors is almost there, and is already perfectly suitable for some markets. And as to the cost; well, yes it's too much now, but I remember when calculators that only add, subtract, multiply, and divide used to cost $159.99; (big Nixie tubes!) now they give them away.

The rotorary Wankel engine was actually quite successful in it's day, but was designed before emission standards came into law. It is unfair to compare something designed long ago with today's standards. That would be like saying arc lamps were a failure because they smoke and make a mess.

Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-23-2001 06:01 PM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John said:
quote:
Here are some links to the Kodak Cinesite work on "O Brother, Where Art Thou?":

The original negative was digitally scanned at very high resolution, and after the digital image manipulation and enhancement, output back to film using laser output. Many have commented on the superb image quality.


The recent DVD release of "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" has a bonus feature covering the work done by Kodak Cinesite on this feature. I didn't see it in the theater, so I can't comment on how the film actually looked. On the the DVD, sometimes the faces looked like that they were covered in a ton of white dust. Maybe that was the intended effect, but it bothered me at times. What was real interesting was that the film was shot in June and July and they were able to change predominate background trees to an autumn color very successfully without messing the foreground up. Interesting bonus worth watching on the whole process.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-23-2001 06:06 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mitchell said: "On the the DVD, sometimes the faces looked like that they were covered in a ton of white dust. Maybe that was the intended effect, but it bothered me at times."

AFAIK, that was the intended effect. It's been a few months since I've seen the film, so I don't recall the scenes you are referring to. Kodak has a "split screen" demo that shows how the colors of the green trees and grass were changed without changing the other things in the scene like clothing and flesh tones.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Peter Berrett
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 602
From: Victoria, Australia
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-23-2001 11:58 PM      Profile for Peter Berrett   Author's Homepage   Email Peter Berrett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 

Hi all

I think that at the end of the day the Digital vs film argument will be settled by the audience. Frankly if I saw a movie projected by a digital projector at a cinema I would probably not realise it if somebody didn't tell me. I do, however notice scratches on film and those funny white blobs that appear just before a change of scene sometimes.

I found Disney's attitude towards digital interesting. If they seriously want to save money and believe that digital is good enough then why don't they just shoot in 16mm? As far as I can see 16mm has superior resolution to that which the lower end digital projectors offer currently.

I look at the whole debate about digital vs film in the following way. Essentially at one end of the street you have the film production company who want to make a profit from making movies and at the other end you have the cinema patron who wants to see the movie. The argument is about how you get from one end of the street to the other in the least costly manner.

In many other industries we are seeing technology reducing the costs to both producer and consumer. The motion picture industry is no different. Yes film at present may have a slight edge over digital in terms of resolution however it is only a matter of time (and not long at that) before the resolution and colour quality will equal, if not surpass that of film.

This will hapen. No ifs and buts - more just a question of when. Just as black and white film was displaced by colour film, colour film will be displaced by digital projection at some point.

Personally I regard this as a positive step. The cheaper movie making equipment is and the cheaper distribution costs are, the more people and businesses will be able to compete at producing movies. Arguably there may even be scope for better movies produced by amateur organisations and individuals.

cheers peter

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Bernie Anderson Jr
Master Film Handler

Posts: 435
From: Woodbridge, New Jersey
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 06-24-2001 09:00 AM      Profile for Bernie Anderson Jr   Author's Homepage   Email Bernie Anderson Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Do you really think that the film studios will pass along the savings to the consumer? They could do that now if they wanted to. By changing the media that the movie is being presented on is not gonna change anything, except for the studios having more control of the movie, or so they think. Do you realize that the studios put a minimum of a $6 per person price tag on all features. You can charge less than $6 but you're percentage is based on $6. No wonder why the admission prices keep going up. With the high percentages that they are asking increases every year their is nothing to do but raise the prices. They couldn't care less what media it's played on, it's still the movie that they are selling, not the media. The change from film to digital isn't going to do anything but put people out of work and make us pay to watch a big TV.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-24-2001 10:03 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree that studios would never pass any saving to the patrons; they'd keep it! Once the theaters are set up with digital projectors and internet access (or sattelite), the distrubutors would not have to pay for making prints or shipping any media. I read the savings could be about $20 million a year, just for printing and distribution. Not to mention the reduced post-production costs of digital over film.

I think that Pete just mean that: with this extra money, smaller studios will be able to get their product seen.

Honestly, I feel that a well-presented film is worth $8-10. A play is ten times that for even the cheap, buy-day-of-show tickets. True, theaters can't control the content of the film they run! But, if the theater is clean, no wait at the box office or candy stand, comfy seats, good sightlines, well-lit clean screen, steady image, great stereo sound, etc. I think it's worth it.

Digital projection is here; everyone is just waiting for the cost to go down. If your income depends on movie theaters (projection or servicing) start learning about digital projection. Be one of the people theater companies need, not one that knows about equipment that's not used anymore.

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