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Author
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Topic: 70 vs. DC starring Larry Myres
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 03-24-2006 06:25 PM
quote: Ramon Lamarca Marques
When the DLP projectors started being installed a while ago I also thought that this was a clear attempt to remove cinema exhibition of its uniqueness (film cannot be reproduced at home, digital/video can) so home cinema products could be sold as the same experience you get at the pictures. I just cannot understand how exhibitors have not been able to spot something as obvious as this.
I've heard this said several times, and I still don't buy it. Just because the technology is the same, I don't see how that translates into an identical experience. That would be akin to saying that projecting 8mm at home is the same as projecting 35mm in a movie theater, and therefore because both are film, it will be the same experience.
Theaters have the ability to jump on the marketing momentum that can surround something like digital cinema, and use people's familiarity with the home version to their advantage.
The key for movie theaters is to use that momentum to propel themselves far ahead of the experience that people can get in their home. At the theater, people can enjoy the following advantages:
- A night out
- A much bigger screen
- Everything taken care for them in a professional and friendly manner
- Enjoying a good movie in a social atmosphere
In other words, don't sell the movie alone. Don't sell the technology alone. Don't sell the concessions alone.
Sell the entire movie-going experience as a package of all the above.
The correllations to a nice restaurant are very easy to draw, as people can buy food themselves, cook it themselves, and serve it themselves, all in the comfort of their own homes. But good restaurants are always busy almost every night of the week.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 03-24-2006 07:13 PM
quote: Scott Jentsch
Just because the technology is the same, I don't see how that translates into an identical experience. That would be akin to saying that projecting 8mm at home is the same as projecting 35mm in a movie theater, and therefore because both are film, it will be the same experience.
There is a huge difference between image quality of 8mm and 35mm material.
The difference in image detail between home HDTV and that of "D-Cinema" is pretty slight. With regard to first generation video setups, the home 1080i format can actually show more detail.
Like it or not, many HDTV monitors, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players and other new pieces of home theater gear are indeed going to be sold under the banner of "just as good as the theater." And in broad numerical terms, they're not going to be far off the mark. The differences between the home and the theater -at least on the surface- are not much different.
One can bring up JPEG2000 and the much higher bitrate bandwidths of D-Cinema playback (if those 150Mb/s to 250Mb/s rates are actually used in most places -we'll see about that). But home viewers will be saying, "my Blu-Ray player shows movies in 1080p, 1920 X 1080 native pixels, and it looks just as good at the theater."
quote: Scott Jentsch
The correllations to a nice restaurant are very easy to draw, as people can buy food themselves, cook it themselves, and serve it themselves, all in the comfort of their own homes. But good restaurants are always busy almost every night of the week.
Yes. I think the restaurant analogy is quite appropriate.
To be fair, most theaters are failing very miserably in delivering on that concept.
First thing. We're not getting restaurant quality food in the current product. All of the remakes, sequels of shitty films, TV show send-ups, horror movie re-imagings, etc., make me think the restaurant is bringing us chicken pot pie TV dinners with some ramen noodles on the side!
Normally when you visit a restaurant serving bad food, you don't go back. Unfortunately one doesn't have that choice when it comes to theatrical releases. You're getting the same chicken pot pie product everywhere!
This really bad trend in corporate movie studio regurge release has cut waaay back on the number of times I visit a theater in a year. It has also dramatically reduced the number of DVDs I buy as well. If I'm watching any dramatic shows these days, I'm usually checking out some original show on cable. The writing is often better and more interesting.
Second thing: restaurants also depend on proper atmosphere. This is an area where most theater operators are failing, and doing so in several areas.
Cleanliness is one. That issue speaks for itself.
Presentation quality doesn't seem to mean very much. I'm not convinced "digital cinema" is going to help things either. The main ingredient in good presentation quality is a staff that gives a shit. It takes frequent observation and routine maintenance to keep any projection system showing movies properly. Lots of things can even go wrong in a video-based projection setup. And you still have to re-tune that sound system every once in awhile. Unless the film distributors and D-Cinema equipment providers take over A LOT of the work, the generally shitty quality of movie presentation industry-wide is not going to improve. And I'm not even sure leaving it up to distributors and equipment providers are going to help either.
Some theaters are starting to jump on the elegance of decor angle. Curtains, chandeliers, big comfy seats, balconies, ornate sconce lights, lots of neon outside and more are getting incorporated into some new builds. Who wants to pay $50+ to take their family to a movie in an ordinary box-shaped building with atmosphere no more remarkable than the high school auditorium?
Ultimately, home theater standards are leaping forward and will continue to leap even farther forward in the future. It will not be stopped. Commercial theaters have to find some way to keep pace and stay ahead of those home theater advances. Right now I'm not convinced they're doing it.
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Ramon Lamarca Marques
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 186
From: Edgware, England, UK
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 03-25-2006 03:45 PM
quote: Scott Jentsch
I've heard this said several times, and I still don't buy it. Just because the technology is the same, I don't see how that translates into an identical experience.
I am not saying they are identical. I am saying they will sell the home cinema digital stuff as the theatre experience, based on the use of digital technology in theatres.
Do you remember when theatres used to advertise screenings as presented in Dolby digital? How many of them are doing this now? None. The reason being that dolby digital has become a domestic experience and there is no point in advertising it, it has lost its appeal. The same will happen with DLP, as soon as people get their DLP projectors at home, the brand will lose any appeal. The word digital is one of the most common words you can find nowadays. However, 65mm originated 70mm printed film will always belong to the theatres, you will never get that at home, therefore it is a hugely marketable nomenclature now and in many years to come.
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 03-27-2006 03:54 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
There is a huge difference between image quality of 8mm and 35mm material.
You're exactly right, and that's the point I was hoping to make. Just because the technology is somewhat similar, that doesn't mean that the experience will be the same. Film is film is film doesn't fly any further than digital is digital is digital.
It's up to the theaters to be better at delivering the total package than the home. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but any theater incapable of competing with that doesn't deserve to stay in business any more than a restaurant delivering a poor experience deserves to keep its doors open.
quote: Bobby Henderson
The difference in image detail between home HDTV and that of "D-Cinema" is pretty slight. With regard to first generation video setups, the home 1080i format can actually show more detail.
Strange as it may sound, this can work to the theaters' advantage, or it can be their worst nightmare. In my home theater, the image doesn't jump around, lose focus, or have the sound dropout every 20 minutes. When I go to the theater, I should expect that level of quality at a bare minimum, and better, since I'm paying handsomely for the experience.
Digital Cinema has potential to get rid of jump and weave, no sound dropouts at the reel splices (yeah, I know it shouldn't happen, but it does), and a host of other advantages over film. Will there be other issues? Most likely. But that's par for the course in any business. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.
Home theater is setting a bar movie theaters need to live up to, not the other way around. Those that aren't up to the challenge will die.
quote: Ramon Lamarca Marques
Do you remember when theatres used to advertise screenings as presented in Dolby digital? How many of them are doing this now? None. The reason being that dolby digital has become a domestic experience and there is no point in advertising it, it has lost its appeal. The same will happen with DLP, as soon as people get their DLP projectors at home, the brand will lose any appeal. The word digital is one of the most common words you can find nowadays.
In my personal experience, the move away from advertising digital sound came more because of the fact that theaters didn't want to hassle with adding the trailers, and that they thought people didn't care about the difference between DTS and Dolby Digital. Now the assumption is that movies are presented in digital sound, even if they may not be.
The BigScreen Cinema Guide still allows for the distinction between the formats. Some theaters take advantage of it, many don't. I even support the notation of Dolby-EX and DTS-ES, but I can't remember the last time anyone used it.
As a movie fan, I want to see the digital trailer. Sure, the DTS ones were really unimaginative, but the Dolby Train was very cool, and even the less inspired ones were fun. When I go to a THX theater I want and expect to see a THX trailer. This to me is part of the "show" and I'm disappointed when the theaters can't be bothered to add the trailers.
I'm setting up my home theater to run a "pre-show" trailer before the movie starts. A second DVD player cue'd up with the trailer starts after the lights dim, and then the movie begins on the primary DVD player cue'd up at the beginning fade-in of the movie. All this will be initiated by a simple press of a button on my touchscreen remote. Movie theaters can't seem to figure out how to put on as good a show, which is really sad, but it speaks to this whole issue of showmanship.
quote: Ramon Lamarca Marques
However, 65mm originated 70mm printed film will always belong to the theatres, you will never get that at home, therefore it is a hugely marketable nomenclature now and in many years to come.
I admit to getting excited when the thread popped up a couple of weeks ago. However, as time passed and the conversation degraded into what it did, I came to the realization that 70mm is gone and won't be coming back into significance. To do so would take a concerted effort on the part of theater chains to make a committment of money and resources, and I see no signs of them being willing to do either.
I believe in its benefits and I volunteered my resources to any real effort to inform and educate, and there isn't even enough interest to get that far.
What I saw on the Bally's and Paris' 55 foot screens at Showest was better than anything I can get here in the Milwaukee area. Only one screen in the entire metropolitan area is bigger at 75', and that has constantly disappointed me. Bigger is not better, better is better.
Digital Cinema at 2K and above is better than 35mm film in the real world. I'm sure there are exceptions where some excellent projectionists are making their profession proud, but I for one am looking forward to introduction of digital cinema in this area.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 03-30-2006 10:45 PM
While it must be prefaced home theater systems vary to an extreme on levels of quality (from really crappy to downright great), the audio tracks found on DVD discs do indeed have higher bitrates than their theatrical counterparts. I don't think the compression ratio differences between home and theatrical are huge, but differences are there.
Theatrical Dolby Digital runs at 320kb/s. Most DVDs have 5.1 tracks running at 448kb/s, but some are dropped down to 384kb/s. Home DD 5.1 can be run well under 300kb/s, but such tracks are very rare.
In the case of DTS, the theatrical version runs at 820kb/s, but uses a different compression format than the home version. Most home DTS tracks run at 754kb/s. It's tough to find DVDs with "full bitrate" 1509kb/s data rates. The DTS-ES 6.1 discrete format has been used exclusively on DVD, even though the new DTS-XD10 cinema player can decode and play such tracks.
Surround sound capability is going to get even better in the home with the arrival of Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD aboard new HD-disc formats. Those formats can boast more discrete channels, larger bit depths, larger bit rates and even lossless compression.
Commercial cinemas are going to have to work hard illustrating the differences between their breed of video playback versus that of the home. Just on pixel count, the home HD setup looks like a near match. That's one of the main reasons why adoption of 4K in commercial cinema video playback is so important. I don't think it's going to be enough to throw out "JPEG 2000 compression," "150Mb/s-250Mb/s data rate" or "only 3 tiles per frame!" Most people will just be stuck at that "digital" term, using it as a double edged sword back at the cinemas who first tried to gain a marketing advantage from it.
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 04-04-2006 08:29 AM
Maybe the plus side to all this is that the technologies are going to be similar enough that marketing the technology will be the wrong way to go.
Perhaps the best way to go, then, would be to embrace the fact that these technologies should help theaters deliver a great presentation from the technical side of things, and allow their staff to concentrate on the customer service side of the movie experience.
How does this apply to the original intent of this thread? It goes toward the ability of a theater to put a great presentation together and using the right equipment for the task. For really big screens, maybe 70mm is necessary, or maybe stacking two digital cinema projectors to achieve the necessary brightness.
Given that there are few things to hang a marketing hat on in regards to technology, it would be a mistake to try and market going to the movies using a technology angle. Many people don't care about the technology that makes things happen.
Those who do care about the technology side of things are going to see through any false attempts to trumpet technological differences that don't contribute to a better experience. I care about whether a movie is in DTS vs. Dolby Digital because, in my experience, DTS has been more reliable. But it would be a mistake for a theater to say that its presentation is going to be better than home theater by saying that it has DTS, because I have a system at home that is capable of delivering more discrete channels of sound than the theater can. At the very minimum, it's a tie, and you don't want to market yourself as being the same as something else. (It can be used as a differentiator between one theater and the theater down the road if that theater doesn't have the same performance capability, however.)
Seeing the 2K presentations at Showest made me want to see more movies in the movie theater. That's the feeling every theater should want its patrons to have after seeing a movie in their establishment. Keep them coming back for more!
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