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Author Topic: Yet another article about digital projection...
Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 05-30-2002 10:52 AM      Profile for Mark Lucas   Email Mark Lucas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, perfect! There was nothing to put up with. The image was solid, detailed and totally satisfying. I originally saw Toy Story 2 on film and I can honestly say the DLP presentation beat it to death. If it wasn't for pixels being noticable on some text then it would've been flawless.

I apologize again for saying something good about digital projection.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-30-2002 10:59 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Funny I saw it both ways and even the regular part of ToyStory was pixilated.
Also the image was darker than the film copy on the same sized screen and a much larger lamp was being used for the DLP
either the film presentation in your area is really piss poor (and if that is the case the DLP will not stay quality for that long) or you have a lower set of image standards that you go by than others

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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 05-30-2002 12:49 PM      Profile for Mark Lucas   Email Mark Lucas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The film presentation was fine. It wasn't a 70mm dye transfer or something like that but it was good. A standard Film Done Decent show. The DLP version I saw a week later appeared to be better in every way but that's not possible, right? It should've been dim, pixelated, and plagued with compression artifacts. How dumb of me not to have noticed those things. All this time I've thought that every movie I've seen so far in DLP(or ) has looked f*cking fantastic when it's really been because my standards are really low.

I never see movies in my area anymore. Something to do with wanting to see them projected properly...


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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-30-2002 03:50 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"when it's really been because my standards are really low. "

There you go...

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 05-30-2002 05:07 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, next you'll probably say something good about canola oil...


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-30-2002 05:51 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, accepting your experience with digital presentation was great -- no one can refute your perception. Let's then agree that the picture looked spectacular in every way. That still leaves the question, why is this flawless presentation not repeatable elsewhere around the country? Last night I saw my second DLP presention -- AOTC. This presentation was plagued by some very unpleasant and significant deficiencies -- by poor focus, contrast that shifted wildly from decent to terrible, in some shots so bad it looked like you were looking through a white haze. These were the same complaints I had with my first DLP encounter -- JURASSIC PARK.

Further, EP 2 was very dark in places so much so that my eyes were aching for more light and detail. The lack of detail I think was what caused a very uncomfortable feeling watching those scenes more so than the lack of light. I've watched may films in theatres that were well under 16ftL and that wasn't nearly as uncomfortable as was the lack of detail in both Ep2 and JP.

My point is, I don't know what was going on where you were watching spectacular DLP, it could very well been one of those vanity sites that Technicolor is running (and consequently, super tweaking) to convince producers to go to DLP. But in the real world of the AMC Empire in the heart of Times Square where it's down and dirty day in and day out, the DLP system is simply not holding up -- I just isn't reproducing that pristine image that they are able to get in Alhambra; over here in New York, it looks a lot worse than its film counterpart.

I was able to walk from the DLP theatre at the end of the 9:30p Ep2 show and into the 10:30p show in the 35mm theatre. The DLP was fresh in my mind. I was able to watch a good part of the 35mm show and I was immediately struck with how rich the image was with detail, color and above all, contrast. The difference was not subtle. I also saw the film "artifacts"-- there was dirt and some scratches - quite an inditement of what must be going on in that booth given that this film has only been playing a few weeks. But, I can tell you that I prefered the film over the DLP overwhelmingly.

Now mind you, there was a lot of the same soft focus problems in the film as ther was in the DLP, where the computer generated stuff was combined with the live (the live action looking WORSE than the CGI stuff). This tells me that we really can't make a judgement based on films like Ep2 or any other heavy CGI/SFX material because we can never tell if the computer generated stuff is what looks like crap or if it actually a shortcoming of the DLP itself. The only REAL test of what DLP can or can't do is if a film is shot with little or NO computer generated material and the camera neg is used to generate a DLP master as well as a 35mm showprint. Then we watch both and decide which is more pleasing.

Next, we look at the REAL deciding factor -- the cost from camera lens to projector lens, including maintenance and operational costs of DLP and 35mm film. It's those cost factors, more than anything else that will tell us which of the two systems will dominate the industry in 2025.

Frank

PS, just out of curiosity, how can ANYONE tell if DLP is rock steady when the camera never stopped zooming around like it was mounted in a bucking bronko? Perhaps Mr. Lucas realized that if he sat his video camera on a tripod for one freakin minute, then maybe too many people would be able to actually see the lack of resolution, detail and contrast. Ten minutes into the film I was looking for the dramamine.

PPS -- Even it DLP could get as good as 70mm (stop snickering), does anyone think that a theatre owner who won't spend $20 to fix a film cleaner is going to spend $130,000 on a DLP when he's already got a 35mm that works? (now you can snicker). In what version of reality are the people who think this will happen living?

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-30-2002 06:09 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
DLP to my eyes looks soft. At first glance it may seem sharp and free from imperfections but eventually I find my eyes searching for detail that simply isn't there. Digital is a hard limiting medium; it's perfect to a point and then just ends abruptly whereas film's resolution goes on and on but all the while gradually petering out in terms of contrast ratio (the MTF graph explains it). And that's with DLP projection of a high resolution film original. Star Wars simply looked soft period. Not surprising when you consider the low resolution nature of the HDCam video format and the subsequent severe cropping to the 2.39 : 1 shape. Anyone who finds this superior to a good film show simply cannot have very high standards.

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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 05-31-2002 01:01 AM      Profile for Mark Lucas   Email Mark Lucas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay I admit that the DLP shows I've seen might've been "super-tweaked", that is done right. Three of them were in a theater in Burbank only a few miles from the studios. AOTC was in the world famous Chinese theater which was used for a charity screening before it was released. Both these installations were almost certainly heavily supervised and adjusted for optimal performence, not the typical rush job to get digital projection into a theater. Judging from the opinions expressed on these boards I can guess that not all DLP shows are created equal, especially outside of Los Angeles. It's either that or you're all so anti-digital projection nothing can convince you. I can understand though. Hopefully you'll see Digital Projecton Done Right one day.

DLP is rock steady when it's from a direct digital source. There are plently of non-moving shots in AOTC to see this.


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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-31-2002 01:57 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not anti-digital. In fact I hold a degree in Computer Science. I look forward to seeing higher resolution digital cinema projectors and digital cameras expressly made for that purpose, embodying some sort of ultra definition format, something just for cinema. But for right now the systems presently in place are simply not as sharp as the film systems they are replacing. That's not me holding my nose in the air; it's a simple matter of fact and is measurable. I'd like to see something at least as good before a massive conversion takes place.

And that's the minimum. When you consider the capital outlay and the likelyhood that these things will become obsolete in 3-5 years vs. the 20 year life of most film cinema gear (30-50 years on the projectors themselves) it is also reasonable to ask for it to be better than what it is replacing, perhaps 70mm quality.

If you're claiming that Ep. II looks as sharp and clear as a purely film originated and projected image, well you can repeat it over and over but it still isn't true. It isn't from a subjective standpoint nor would it stand up to objective testing. If you don't believe me then come on over to rec.arts.movies.tech and take it up with David Mullen who photographed "Jackpot" in exactly the same format and he can tell you his experiences with all sorts of tests and comparisons.

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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 05-31-2002 02:33 PM      Profile for Mark Lucas   Email Mark Lucas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I never even hinted that AOTC looked as good as a conventional film film. It has it's own look, just like 16mm and 70mm have their own look. It doesn't mean it's bad. It served the story and the visuals well. Mr. Mullen would probably agree with that.

Too bad more people didn't get to see the DLP presentation of Hearts in Atlantis that I saw. That was one hell of a good transfer.


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-31-2002 06:14 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,

I too am not anti-digital. In fact, I went into that screening because I was asked by a forum memeber to watch the Ep 2 in the same theatre he saw it in and to give an unbiased evaluation. I went in determined to evaluate it exactly the way I would any 35mm presentation.

Look, the goals that DLP aspires to would make anyone interested in superior presentation very happy. As someone whose whole career has been focused on the art-house end of the industry, where our goal is to be able to show retrospective classics to new generations so these magnificant works can be appreciated and made real to them, I know first hand the shortcomings of 35mm distribution (not 35mm FILM, but the way it is stored, maintained and made available -- or not). I cannot tell you how painful it is to have to run mono prints of films that originally were created in 6 channel stereo....or prints that are faded, scratched, chopped up and otherwise mutilated. Would I embrace a technology that would allow me to run TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD on a large screen with a scratch-free, pristine image that looked every bit as good as the Russel Harlan's original cinemaphotography, instead of the 16mm print which is what Universal claims is the only release print they have available? You you bet I would -- in a freakin New York minute. I wouldn't care if it was digital or starship partical beam based technology, I would be the first one on my block to set it up in the booth.

Problem is, we are not there yet. When the technology gets image quality that is REALLY equal to 35mm film, then the next issue is the cost. Will the art-houses be able to afford the new technology? Will anyone? As I have said in other posts; it is going to be the economic model that drive this technology above all else. And to prove my point, I quote Christopher Forman, CEO of Pacific Theatre -- the company that just sunk $100 million in a development that added 14 new screens behind the Cinerama Dome. Did they install DLP in ANY of these state-of-the-art theatres? Not a one. While their theatres may be digital "ready," exhibitors obviously is not. Mr. Forman says "Our theatres are digital ready, conduits are there, cable and other infrastructure. But (DLP's) time has not yet come. Until there is a standard and until there is an economic model, IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE." His words, not mine. Nuff said.

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-31-2002 06:41 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yay common sense

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 06-01-2002 05:34 AM      Profile for Mark Lucas   Email Mark Lucas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But there is a DLP unit at the Arclight/Cinerama Dome complex. It's in use now showing the animated horse movie Spirit.

I guess I'm the only person here who thinks DLP in it's current form looks good now. Hopefully when a new higher resolution unit comes out with DLP or some other company we can all embrace this technology. Maybe some of those older units can be bought by the arthouses. Not sure if they'll be compatible with whatever storage methods there will be then.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-01-2002 06:49 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You're not the only one. DLP looks good. But it doesn't look "amazing". Ask yourself these questions, Mr. Lucas:

-Is DLP as it is right now good enough? Should we settle on this resolution of approximately 1200x1000 pixels?

-Did you know a computer monitor that anyone can buy for $200 can far outperform DLP in terms of image quality? Did you know DLP is approximately the same exact resolution as HDTV? Shouldn't a professional format easily defeat what normal consumers can buy?

-Who should pay for this, especially considering when theater chains are cheap asses and it's the studios who will save millions on shipping, etc. What is the incentive for theaters given the fact that few don't even care about quality as it is right now? A lowly paid projectionist who works for 5 years with a $1 raise every year is still cheaper than a single DLP unit. Do you think the studios will actually pay for this?

-How will DLP be upgraded if it is decided that it will be improved? The entire mirror array would have to be changed out and also the new software and all that to handle the new codecs. I imagine that more storage space would also be needed due to less compression and larger file size of the improved format.

-Do you like to start arguments? It's great that you had some good DLP presentations, but it seems to me based on some of your comments ("Sorry I said something good about digital", "nothing can convince you" etc etc etc) lead me to believe that you are perhaps a troll.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-01-2002 07:10 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe he is a relative of George

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