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Author Topic: Yet another article about digital projection...
Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 06-01-2002 08:25 AM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
[Post Deleted By The Author]

~Manny.

"I have a bad feeling about this."


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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 06-01-2002 09:32 AM      Profile for Mark Lucas   Email Mark Lucas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe I shouldn't say anything here. It's obvious no one wants to hear it.


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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-01-2002 10:07 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mostly it's HOW you say it.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-01-2002 10:40 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well then please summarize your point for us because I'm not sure what it is anymore.

You acknowledge that the current digital projection system does not put out as sharp a picture as film yet you think it's great and would love to see its wide adoption. Well now you've moved from fact into opinion and that is not something I can argue with. You are welcome to whatever opinion you wish. But you can understand why most of the rest of us would find it a little astonishing that anyone would advocate something that is by everyone's agreement a step backwards in basic image quality. No dirt or scratches is great but those shouldn't be there in the first place and I'm not willing to give up the basic quality of the picture for it.

On the next round when resolution has been up'ed then there will be a lot of people advocating it just as you do (probably me included) because even now they don't have too much farther to go. But they aren't there yet. The business and economic arguments come on top of the quality issues. I won't even get into that because if one is approaching this simply as a moviegoer who either likes or doesn't like what he sees then those are besides the point.

But I will restate for your benefit a point I have made before. For a chipmaker like TI the movie theatre industry will only ever be a small business. The real market will, when costs come down, be in home projectors. Given that HD is a consumer format when the average person can afford a system that projects a wall-sized picture if the picture quality is just as good as what is shown in the cinema there will be far less reason to go out to a movie. Hollywood will give first run to whichever mode will make them the most money in the shortest time and when there is a large universe of home HD projectors pay per view day & date will be too tempting for them to resist. This is a further reason to hold off on the present system and wait for an ultra definition system.

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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 06-01-2002 11:20 AM      Profile for Mark Lucas   Email Mark Lucas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think I've already made my point and was accused of being a troll. I don't feel like being attacked again.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 06-01-2002 02:25 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think anyone is attacking you. Many of us just disagree. The simple matter is the math just does not add up both in terms of image quality and business model for doing an industry wide DLP conversion.

My own opinion is that there are a number of business people doing some serious arm twisting behind the scenes because they want to make a ton of money off of patents and licensing for these inferior systems. I would not be surprised at all if George Lucas had a seriously vested interest in DLP. Overall, I see the digital projection thing as being a kind of scam using the buzzword "DIGITAL" so a few fellows can make a lot of money. You have to keep in mind that Texas Instruments, JVC and others developing "digital projection" systems are using commercial theaters as a kind of staging area for pushing the same imaging chips into the much more lucrative home theater and personal computing markets. Commercial theaters will never have any exclusivity on high image standards when it comes to digital projection. There are not enough theaters to amortize out the cost of R&D to keep the technology exclusively there. At least movie theaters do have an exclusive when it comes to 35mm and 70mm film projection. Few home owners can install such hardware (much less even run or maintain it properly).

I think the most serious issue is how DLP doesn't even compare favorably to HDTV. That's downright alarming. DLP has a native resolution of 1280 X 1024 --or 1,310,720 pixels. Compare that to the 1080i HDTV format which displays 1080 X 1920 --2,073,600 pixels. You're talking about a 700,000 pixel difference, not to mention HDTV is already a native 16:9 display whereas DLP is 4:3 ratio and has to be anamorphically expanded on any show.

It is already a bad deal for many home theater users to feel their home rig is better than the theater. Some can already claim that on the sound aspect. When it is happening on the image end, you're talking about a poison pill for the movie theater industry. That dog just won't hunt.

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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 06-01-2002 04:29 PM      Profile for Mark Lucas   Email Mark Lucas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I guess you're right. Silly of me to think I was seeing a good picture.


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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-01-2002 05:26 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes it was

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-01-2002 08:38 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No one said you weren't seeing "a good picture." But most of us (you included) have said it's not AS GOOD a picture (as pure film). I don't think anyone takes issue with the contention that the DLP units put out a pretty good picture, one which many average moviegoers would be (and are) satisfied with. But it's not AS good and therefore by definition it would be a step back in basic image quality. I'd rather wait a bit for something better. Considering the current standard has been out first in prototype form and now in production models for several years it stands to reason that the higher rez systems must be waiting in the wings.

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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 06-02-2002 02:24 PM      Profile for Mark Lucas   Email Mark Lucas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was actually enjoying this thread despite the questioning of my "low image standards". Now I'm just not interested in replying anymore.


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-02-2002 04:58 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roger Ebert and his readers again exchange comments on digital projection in today's Answer Man column. Roger might not be aware that many newer theatres feature modestly curved screens.


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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-02-2002 07:27 PM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Considering the current standard has been out first in prototype form and now in production models for several years it stands to reason that the higher rez systems must be waiting in the wings."

Imagine how hacked off the guys that bought the old one are going to be when the new ones come out. Course that's the nature of computer stuff isn't it? Every couple of years you have to buy a new one to stay current. So does that mean that it's going to cost $150k every other year to stay digital? Planned obsolescence!!! How much is TI stock now? Hmmmmm

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Mark Lucas
Film Handler

Posts: 44
From: CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 06-03-2002 05:03 PM      Profile for Mark Lucas   Email Mark Lucas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hopefully a standard everyone can be happy with can be established. Preferrably a resolution above or near 2k with minimal compression. Yeah, that's not as good as 4k but 2k seems to be the magic number today with digital intermediates and visual effects work. We all wish studios would film in 70mm too.


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-03-2002 08:43 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The digital people have a valid argument that while somewhere around 4K/line or even more is needed to capture all that is on the negative a lot of rez is lost in printing (especially the multigenerations it takes to make a release print) and doesn't make it to the screen. That's why 1280 pixels can look as good as it does. Not quite there yet but much, much better than one would have ever thought.

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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 06-04-2002 05:59 AM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One statistic I've seen bandied about recently is that today's 35mm negatives can capture the equivalent of 6.5K resolution. Even if the duplication process cuts that in half, it still leaves more than 3K resolution on the final prints, which is quite a bit more than DLP's current level.

I would consider 2K the absolute minimum for digital cinema, not only for the reasons Mark just mentioned, but also because of what Bobby mentioned. For obvious reasons, what's in theatres must meet or exceed what people can get at home. Digital cinema must be at least equal to HDTV's "1080i" resolution (1920x1080) in order to be competitive.

As I've mentioned before, if one sits at the SMPTE recommended 2 screen heights distance, a 2.39:1 scope image will take up just over 60 degrees of one's vision. Going by the rule of thumb that the eye can see details as small as one arcminute, that means 3600 pixels are needed across the width of the image to make it appear smooth. Anything at or above that number is what I would consider "enough" resolution. JVC's roadmap for their D-ILA technology claims 4K x 3K by the end of this year. Hopefully that will make its way into theatres.

The worst thing that could happen would be for the exhibition industry to unceremoniously hand everything over to the first company that comes along -- namely TI. They've been sitting at the same resolution for the past five years. If they become the de-facto standard, they will lose any incentive to improve their product. Competition should be given a chance force quality parameters higher than they currently are. I hope that industry inertia against mass conversion will last long enough to for that to happen. I would hate to be stuck watching 1280x1024 for the next 20 years.

By the way Mark, if you're going to complain about being "attacked", perhaps you should go back and re-read the first post you made in this thread. There's an old saying about pots and kettles...


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