Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Marcus Now Equipping D-Cinema

my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

»	Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE » Operations » Digital Cinema Forum » Marcus Now Equipping D-Cinema (Page 2)

This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5

Author

Topic: Marcus Now Equipping D-Cinema

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 09-02-2006 08:31 PM

Oh the prescreening thing does not change in the digital world...in fact it is more necessary than ever! With a digital file...you have NO idea if it will all run or if you have some form of corruption...picture OR sound.

I just did a studio screening digitally...guess what...just like with film, it was prescreened by the studio in the theatre before the intended audience saw it to verify that everything was in good order first! that aspect will NOT change...probably ever.

| IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-02-2006 09:49 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
I just did a studio screening digitally...guess what...just like with film, it was prescreened by the studio in the theatre before the intended audience saw it to verify that everything was in good order first! that aspect will NOT change...probably ever.

Case in point! Once HBO had a digital premiere at Radio City... neither the main or backup server would playback the files and over 4000 people were sent back home. Since that episode they have stuck with film premieres although today things would probably go alot better than it did back then.

Mark

| IP: Logged

Paul Gordon
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 580
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 09-04-2006 09:15 AM

Whats the failure rate on these new digital systems run off a CPU running Windows Xp?

I'm curious because a theatre in my town tried out a digital system for a week to play some indy docs and it failed 4 times out of the 7 shows. The system just rebooted half way through the show and started the film from the beginning again...there was no way to even skip to were it crapped out, no chapter markers. Anyway it was disaster.. the owner had to go buy a DVD player and the DVD's as a back up.

| IP: Logged

Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 09-04-2006 05:50 PM

I guess I didn't realize things in the digital world were still so unreliable. I figured that companies would refuse to spend the money on something unless it was at least as reliable as what they were replacing. If the files are getting corrupted that frequently, why would anyone want to switch over? Bad reels from the lab are very few and far between at my theatre.

| IP: Logged

Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 09-04-2006 09:54 PM

The cost of digital projection is being footed by the studios in most cases. This '$100,000 a projector' nonsense doesn't have much or anything to do with the real cost of digital install. For our theatre there were some costs Carmike had to pay-upgrades to the electrical service, roof exhaust, etc. For all twelve screens the cost was not small but it was nowhere near $100,000.

In regards to maintaining good presentation-in what way can someone screw up pushing a button that would give an inferior presentation?!

| IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-05-2006 12:29 AM

quote: Frank Dubrois
You cant train a real projectionist in 15 minutes

No, but it seems like we all trained you in about 30 min [Big Grin]

!

Mark

| IP: Logged

Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 09-05-2006 12:25 PM

If anyone has ever seen several presentations at Marcus theaters, you would be very aware of why they are investigating digital cinema as an alternative.

Jump, weave, sound dropouts at reel changes, scratches, and misframing are the biggest offenders that should be eliminated by going to digital cinema. However, other runners-up, such as broken sound channels, Dolby Digital sound "warbling", focus issues, and apathetic staff will still have to be addressed in order for them to reach a higher level of showmanship.

While I don't believe that the above issues are present at every Marcus theater, I have personally observed them at a variety of theaters around the Milwaukee area over the past several years. I also don't believe that these issues are unique to Marcus theater locations, lest anyone think that I'm bashing on Marcus specifically.

If a theater can resolve some of the presentation-related issues by going to digital cinema, there's a very real non-economic factor involved. If it results in improved customer reaction, which it appears is what they are trying to gauge with their exit surveys, then that would be an additional benefit to making a transition.

If a circuit-wide economic savings can be realized by having DC-qualified personnel on-call instead of having projectionists (term used very loosely, in respect for those skilled people that are here) at each theater, all the better.

Some day, we're going to look back at the age of film and marvel at how incredibly manual it all was. I remember when I was growing up, a family friend had a reel-to-reel tape deck. I never used one myself, but back then, could anyone have imagined that such an apparatus would be replaced by technology that allows hundreds of albums stored on a hard drive in a lossless digital format that is able to broadcast music to your entire home?

Ideal-conditions quality arguments aside, I think digital cinema is one of the biggest opportunities for movie theaters since 1993. I look forward to seeing a digitally-projected movie at a Marcus theater!

Kudos to Marcus for having the foresight to investigate the technology and learn from it first-hand!

Oh, and as for concession staff being replaced by vending machines? In many theaters (regardless of ownership), this would be a welcome improvement in customer service!

| IP: Logged

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-05-2006 01:39 PM

quote: Chad Souder
I figured that companies would refuse to spend the money on something unless it was at least as reliable as what they were replacing.

Oh, come on. Hardly anything digital is EVER as reliable as the same thing in analog. With an analog "whatever," you can quite often tweak, kick or fiddle with it until it will at least work (if not perfectly), but if a digital thing is dead, it's dead, baby.

| IP: Logged

Ron Yost
Master Film Handler

Posts: 344
From: Paso Robles, CA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 09-05-2006 02:34 PM

Speaking of the need to pre-check the digital movie files, don't they have some sort of CRC-checking built-in?? Isn't a reliable automatic integrity check performed once the server is loaded with a new show?? And, the same check performed automatically on a regular basis .. maybe between, or at the beginning and end, of shows. If not, why not?? It would seem obvious that it's needed, to me.

There are many means to re-construct damaged digital files from a coded pre-sampling of a known-good file. I don't know how it works, exactly, but with smaller digital files there's a method called "PAR". If there are enough 'samples', errors in the entire file can be corrected.

Is there any sort of redundancy built-in to these systems at all? What about once the show is in progress? What if the data gets somehow corrupted during the show?? Bound to happen as these systems age. As Mike says, digital is -far- from robust.

Is there a means to look-ahead and reconstruct bad (or missing) data on the fly, as DD does?? And, what happens when the power fails?? Does the show have to be entirely re-loaded?? I'm guessing they must have some sort of power backup to retain the data for a while, but do they??

Considering what these things cost, one would hope there's extensive predictive error-checking, back-up and redundancy built-in. Is there?

Just wondering. [Big Grin]

Ron Yost

| IP: Logged

Paul Konen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 981
From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-05-2006 05:24 PM

Ron, I would think that the OS takes care of the CRC challenges when ingesting the content into the server.

If there is a power failure, everything just has to reboot and depending on the server equipment, it will either pick up from the last checkpoint written, manually enter in the time, or use the FF feature to move through the feature until you get close to where you were.

| IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-06-2006 02:53 AM

quote: Ron Yost
Data does not become corrupt just because of age... that is a rediclous satement to say the least.

Data does not become corrupt just because of age... that is a rediclous satement to say the least. I have HD's that are over 15 years old that still run and the data on them is just fine. The problem with age and data is storage on old magnetic tape type mediums... then there is an age issue big time.

quote: Ron Yost
Is there any sort of redundancy built-in to these systems at all? What about once the show is in progress? What if the data gets somehow corrupted during the show?? Bound to happen as these systems age. As Mike says, digital is -far- from robust.

With the Dolby Server there is some redundancy built in. Since it operates on a RAID array it can loose one HD and still keep going without any trouble at all. Just relpace the bad drive and it will automatically re-configure the new one. It can even loose a second drive and continue to function but it will not auto re-configure the new drives, then it has to be done manually.
I don't know if other brands of servers can do this but one thing that does hold true of most other servers is that they are all built using off the shelf boards and parts fomr various manufacturers.... Those servers will become surplus junk if those board manufacturers decide to discontinue some major board or part. The Dolby Server is the only built from the ground up D-Cinema Server that you will always be able to get repaired. A huge advantage on a 20,000.00 plus product! If Marcus had any correct insight into D-Cinema at all while selecting equipment they hopefully ended up with the Dolby Servers.

quote: Scott Jentsch
Ideal-conditions quality arguments aside, I think digital cinema is one of the biggest opportunities for movie theaters since 1993. I look forward to seeing a digitally-projected movie at a Marcus theater!

Kudos to Marcus for having the foresight to investigate the technology and learn from it first-hand!

You are dead right on that statement. I agree. If I owned even a small single screen theater that was moderately sucessful I would already have it equipped! It is indeed the way of the future and learning and knowing about it as it progresses is a VERY smart move. Until everyone here that is speculating about it(most of you) has operated a D-Cinema System and has seen a Digital Presentation that has been done right you can all place your foot back in your mouth [Big Grin]

.

Mark

| IP: Logged

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-06-2006 04:02 AM

quote:
If I owned even a small single screen theater that was moderately sucessful I would already have it equipped!

I think you'd have to be a lot more than MODERATELY successful, because a small single-screener is on his own right now, with regard to the financing.

| IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-06-2006 07:45 AM

Not true! There are at least one option to finance D-Cinema available now fomr one of the manufacturers... and its not just the projector, one manufacturers entity we may be using in the very near future will finance the whole package. No, its not the Cinema Buyers Group..... As usual they are in the wait and hold mode supplying their members with no worthwhile info while their heads are burried in the sand anad the chains quietly install equipment and get a grip on the situation. CBG just can't get seem to get any financing worked out even though they are supposedly the second largest group of buyers.... how does that happen? You would think Wall Street would be knocking at their door.... I wonder if you can even buy a lamp or roll of splicing tape from them yet??? I can guarantee you it will be the manufacturers or some other arm of them that do the financing in the end... Not the Buyers Group.... There is too much money to be made financing this stuff and the manufacturers are not going to let that extra profit slide away.

Then, there is always your local bank too! Dolby is rating this stuff as 15 year life span item in regards to the banks and financing so you can take it out at least that long and payments would be very affordable. It might also be possible to work out the virtual print fee on your own with the studios... some places have already done this.

Mark

| IP: Logged

Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 09-06-2006 08:02 AM

The virtual print fee will NOT pay 100%. My understanding is that the film company's particpation will taper off over a period of time. Also, since it is based on NOT making a print, it could pay for a portion of one projector, less of #2, less of #3, etc. Do the math! This means that a 10 plex would largely be paid for by something other than the virtual print fee. Louis

| IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-06-2006 10:30 PM

quote: Louis Bornwasser
This means that a 10 plex would largely be paid for by something other than the virtual print fee.

I don't think it will matter that much with low interest rate loans/leases now available and low interest rates from banks on loans say for 15 years... similar to the life of an average multiplex itself. This will all make it affordable over the life span of a plex. It will ultimately be affordable for almost every one. Then there is alwyas Christie if you want to put up with that nonsense.

Mark

| IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5

Printer-friendly view of this topic

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.