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Topic: How much time left for film?

Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 06-02-2008 12:48 AM

Here in Australia, freezing does seem to be causing some (probably occasional) problems in the limited number of screens that have been converted recently, or so I have heard. I'm also curious about the lamps being changed so often, is 6-10 weeks per bulb sound right? With film I'm getting over 14 months per bulb (vertical lamphouse).

[ 06-02-2008, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Cameron Glendinning ]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-02-2008 08:01 AM

quote: Cameron Glendinning
With film I'm getting over 14 months per bulb (vertical lamphouse).

We go by hours, not months. 14 months assumming a few shows per day isn't really all that great either. I see customers run theor CXL20's for well over 21,000 hours in a horizontal lamphouse. I used to have a few verticles running but they are obsolete in terms of even lighting so they were replaced with new equipment. AlthoughI will say that I know of customers that ran verticles that never changed the lamp during the time period I serviced them.

Hard to say on the freezing issue Cameron... over here its really a non-issue. As for lamps if they are lighting up a large screen and running 6kw lamps that may be correct. This be another good reason to use Christie (UShio) Short Gap Lamps because they generally have a longer rated burning time than other brands do. The 3kw CDXL30 for instance can run for 2500 hours in the ZX projector. I think we'd really need more specifics as to what projector, lamps, screen size, and are they using same projector for pre-show, etc. to be able to gauge what and why from a better angle. Otherwise its all just guessing... but many here seem to like to guess so let them have a crack at it...

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-02-2008 10:01 AM

quote:
Your post is 100% correct Justin!

All except the whole "3-D" rant. It remains a gimmick and a movie with a good story will work just as well without it. I worry about Toy Story 3 -- will Pixar still continue their commitment to story over every other consideration, or will they be so fixated on getting things to stick into people's faces that the story gets sidelined?

The Hannah Montana thing was a fluke, which is proven by the relative flop of the U2 movie that came out right afterward. Teenyboppers would have flocked to Hannah without 3-D.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-02-2008 12:32 PM

Mike,

A gimmik it may be to some but if it adds several hundred thousand dollars to your bank account over several years it's not such a bad gimmik after all! Also Digital 3-D is here to stay, not only is the 3-D quality hard to beat, only rivaled by two projector 15/70 3-D but the possibility of just purchasing an add-on unit for your already existing D-Cinema projector makes it all the more plausable as a viable format. 3-D 35mm Film was never a good 3-D choice because the over/under processes that were used were pretty awful in and of themselves. Also, the color space on a silver screen can also be set properly for both 3-D and for 2-D to enable decent quality 2-D on a silver screen more bareable.

Mark

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 06-02-2008 12:52 PM

If the CBG works out a good deal subsidised by VPFs from the studios for the transition to digital cinema, 3D will be a no brainer. The up front cost to add Real-D to an existing D-Cinema setup is very low (in the same range as adding Digital Sound to an already well designed sound system in the mid 90's). It is really a no-brainer to make a few screens per complex 3D capable once you have the 2D digital projection system in place.

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 06-02-2008 01:16 PM

Well said Mike - I too beleive HM would have been as popular in 2D, but I think if the release was wider there would not have been much increase in attendance, that's my current issue with 3D - what happens when every theatre on the block has multiple 3D screens? I think digital 3D as a format is here to stay, but will be limited to animations and specialty shows.

I think the U2 digital 3D flop was due to Imax getting it exclusively 2-3 weeks in advance as well as all the marketing I saw was geared toward Imax and not digital 3D at theatres.

Mark - I'm interested to know what your observed light output at the beginning and end of the CDXL-30's 2500 hour life. I've tracked 2 in 2 separate CP2000Hs and shown a significant drop in light output after only 900 hours - i.e. 110% power at install yeilded 24FL and now barely 13FL (yes, the initial install was set for 14FL and the lamp has been refocused weekly), I've seen a similar drop with the CDXL-20 lamps - so far my CDXL-60 and CDXL-45 tests are not showing the same drop.

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Justin Hamaker
Film God

Posts: 2253
From: Lakeport, CA USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 06-02-2008 02:51 PM

The issue with the digital 3D is not whether the product would have been just as popular in 2D or whether it's a better product because it's in 3D. The issue is that the product may only be available in 3D and our customers will be demanding to see it.

If Toy Story 3, Ice Age 3, Coraline, and all the upcoming 3D movies also have a 2D version, then there would be no reason to switch. But my understanding is many of these will only have a 3D version - at least for the theatrical release. Which means that if we want to play these movies at all, we have to have 3D.

I do believe Toy Story 3 will have a 2D version, but my Fox rep didn't know if there would be for Ice Age 3. And as far as I know, Journey to the Center of the Earth is 3D only.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-02-2008 03:31 PM

quote:
Mark - I'm interested to know what your observed light output at the beginning and end of the CDXL-30's 2500 hour life. I've tracked 2 in 2 separate CP2000Hs and shown a significant drop in light output after only 900 hours - i.e. 110% power at install yielded 24FL and now barely 13FL (yes, the initial install was set for 14FL and the lamp has been refocused weekly), I've seen a similar drop with the CDXL-20 lamps - so far my CDXL-60 and CDXL-45 tests are not showing the same drop.

I have not checked them as of yet but will be doing so in a few weeks, there is now 6 months running time on them. I'll post the results then. If there was that much light drop over the amount of time you say I know that this customer would have called us to change out the lamps, he is very light conscience.
The interesting thing about the sooper dooper CDXL lamps is that they are not designed to put out any more lumens... They are designed to maintain the stated number of lumens over the stated life of the lamp whilst running at full power. I will be experimenting with the new 6kw sooper dooper lamp in a couple of weeks. We are replacing an Iwerks 15/70 system with a stacked Christie CP-2000 system... and those tests should be interesting to say the least. We already ran preliminary tests on the existing 82X62 foot 1.8 gain screen and the results with just one CP-2000S had almost triple the light on the screen that the aging Iwerks 15/70 could muster running with a 7kw lamp. With stacked CP-2000Ss we should have no trouble maintaining 14fl over the lamp life in their format running 6kw lamps.

The interesting thing here is that now we have a whole bunch of Imax and Iwerks theaters knocking on our door for this system(which does involve some custom optics). Once they learn they can own a system that will perform perfectly satisfactorly, learn they can cut back the labor involved in operations, learn they can save the rediclous Imax/Iwerks maintainance expense and royalties its a simple no brainer on which way to go.... To boot, many large format films are already available in Digital format. For the theater above they have put 14 years of hard use on their 15/70 system and the projector is simply wearing out and not worth the high cost of upgrading the lamphouse and repairing the rotor, feed shoes, sprockets, new 15/70 prints, etc.

Mark

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-02-2008 04:12 PM

quote:
if it adds several hundred thousand dollars to your bank account over several years it's not such a bad gimmik after all!

I would like to interview a few hundred patrons at a 3-D movie and ask them, if this movie had NOT been released in 3-D would you have come to it anyway? I'll bet the answers would consist mostly of:

1. Sure, who cares if it's 3-D?
2. Yes, we didn't even know it was in 3-D until we got here.
3. Yes, in fact I'd like it better because I wouldn't have to wear the stupid glasses.
4. Yes, because then we wouldn't have to pay the extra cost.
5. Yes, because then I wouldn't have this headache.

There might be a few "no" answers, but I'll bet they would be in the minority.

Just for the record, I'm all excited about digital cinema and look forwad to it and plan to get it, but damn, that 3-D thing just leaves me cold.

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 06-02-2008 04:37 PM

Thanks Mark - I've roped myself into a months long lamp study to prove which lamps from Christie are the best choice for our screens (we were originally installed with all CXLs since the CDXLs were not widely available so I need to be convinced they are a better choice) . . . . . . so far after about 900 hours I can say that the CDXL-20 and CDXL-30 lamps have dropped significantly where the CXL-30 and CXL-45 have not dropped as much (40% compared to 20%), but the CDXL-45 and CDXL-60 seem better (when installed all were measured and at 110% power they hit close to the estimated lumen output of each lamp type with the CP2000H)

So far none of these lamps have dropped to below 13FL onscreen and I doubt the average person could really tell unless it dropped to below 10 (there is one all digital chain that I heard asks to have their lamps set at 10FL when lamps are changed)

My worry is while the M is supposed to put out 14,000 lumens it might drop significantly as the lamp ages and depending on how quick and far it drops the resulting screen size could be limited.

Once I have all my data I plan on posting under the digital equipment review thread.

On the 3D/2D thing -- we have run both 2D and 3D copies of each 3D film (except Nightmare Before Christmas) . . . . I've analyzed our ticket sales and for weeks with both versions the 3D attendance was higher by 40-70% . . . . . all advertisements showed 2 separate titles with times separated . .

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-02-2008 04:43 PM

So far there is but one 2kw lamp made for the M. I don't know if other2kw lamps or smaller lamps will even fit in it. We'll just have to wait and see on this....

Mark

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 06-02-2008 05:27 PM

quote: Justin Hamaker
The issue is that the product may only be available in 3D and our customers

This sounds like what Lucas threatened to do with SW, version ?

Are we at the point where a portion of the installed 3D base is good enough for a company like Pixar to risk a major release? If not, then I'd take a bet that the threat would last up to about 2 weeks before the release, and miraculously, we'd hear about 7,000 or so prints hitting the sales floor.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-02-2008 05:40 PM

quote: Mike Blakesley
The Hannah Montana thing was a fluke, which is proven by the relative flop of the U2 movie that came out right afterward. Teenyboppers would have flocked to Hannah without 3-D.

3D had nothing to do with the lack of commercial success for U23D. The advanced age of the band and its best songs was more of a factor than anything else. Some U2 fans love the early 1980s albums and hate the more recent stuff. The die hard fans, such as myself, showed up to see the concert movie. Not many others did. Most people under 30 aren't interested in U2 at all. It's not music from their generation.

The plummeting ratings of American Idol do a lot to prove my point. The popular Fox TV series is losing young viewers by the millions. They're not interested in the show anymore because it is filled with music for middle aged people. There is very little at all for people in the 13 - 30 age demographic. The average viewer age for American Idol is now 42. The only demographic where American Idol gained viewers over the last season was in the 65 and older demographic. The show's producers are looking to retool the formula.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 06-02-2008 06:28 PM

Jack; you speak with great Wisdom! I agree exactly. Louis

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 06-02-2008 07:27 PM

quote: Justin Hamaker
And as far as I know, Journey to the Center of the Earth is 3D only.

I don't think this is true. The TV commercials have "Real-D in selected theatres" or something like that at the end. If it was 3D only I'd think they'd point it out on the commercials.

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