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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Digital Cinema = The death of theaters? (Page 5)

 
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Author Topic: Digital Cinema = The death of theaters?
Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 09-18-2010 06:44 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe,

Realistically, how much bandwidth do you think a typical theatre would need to shift the data in an acceptable time? I'm guessing not a huge amount by modern standards. The download could run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if necessary, but you'd probably need a link fast enough to be able to quickly download one film to replace a faulty copy, of if the programme has to be changed at short notice for some reason.

Since most of the data is moving in one direction you might be able to do it with the fastest ADSL services, which would be cheap, and you could install multiple ones if necessary.

If you need more than that, it starts to get expensive; you can have just about as much bandwidth as you want, if you're prepared to pay for it. Our Internet connection at work is 100 Mb/s at the moment, but due to be upgraded soon. I can't tell you what it costs, because we don't pay for it directly. We have a similar 1 Gb/s link from our main building to an old school building about half an hour's walk away which we are renting while the main building is being totally gutted and refurbished. The installation, and three years rental for this was 103,000 pounds I think; it was a figure not too far from that anyway. The installation was charged at a certain amount for each end, plus so much per metre in between, then there's the rental for the service for as long as we need it. It was a few thousand pounds per end, plus a couple of pounds per metre for the installation; the rest is the rental charge for the service. It's a far more reliable service than ADSL, it basically just doesn't fail, and you get whatever bandwidth you pay for, but obviously it's not cheap.

The lead time for this service was a few weeks, and installation wasn't difficult, BT had fibre at a location not far from our main building, they were able to run tubing for blown fibre through an underground car park. At the other end the local council, which owns the building, have the main distribution centre for all of their schools, so there is a room there where BT have hundreds of cores of fibre, and the room where we needed it is almost directly above; the engineer didn't even need to blow the fibre, he just pushed it through by hand. Installation time was probably about 3-4 hours at each end.

This service is Ethernet, presented on the customer side of the NTE as copper for 10 or 100 Mb/s, multimode or single mode fibre for 1Gb/s, and single mode fibre only for 10 Gb/s; I don't even want to think about what that would cost.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 09-18-2010 10:12 AM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It may be cheap on the receiving side, but you should get all the numbers together.

These popular ADSL networks have no broadcast function. Every receiver needs his personal stream. They ship harddiscs now pretty close to release date. What if a few thousand cinemas connect to that new blockbuster the same night it's released for reception? Of course, there are services like AKAMAI or Torrent-like structures, but still the needed bandwith at some point in these queues needs to be HUGE.
Even on the receiving side, a multiscreen theatre will probably need half a dozend fast ADSL lines receiving 24/7.

That's why satellite is still so popular - the same broadcast can be received by all connected cinemas. But it's not 'on demand' - you have to schedule reception for a specific movie in advance and you need local storage to buffer that.

Then what's so bad about a hard disc coming overnight for under 10$?

Maybe in the future networks will become much faster. But within 1-2 years I can see DCPs on SSDs being transported in soft envelopes. That's still the fastest way to get 150GBytes from A to B.

- Carsten

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 09-18-2010 11:09 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think you're right. With the sort of Ethernet connections I was talking about you could connect all of the theatres to a distribution centre, and then send the files out as multicast packets, but the infrastructure to do it would be expensive, and what if a theatre misses the multicast fr some reason? Presumably it would then need its own transmission of the files later.

I don't think ADSL is good enough, it's not that reliable, it's not that fast, there's too high a contention ratio in it. It's fine for a cheap way to get a reasonablly fast Internet connection at home, or for a small business, and it is very cheap, but not really suitable in this application.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 09-18-2010 02:51 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I still fail to comprehend why each projector needs to have the file live on its own li'l system. Ideally, all movie files for the entire complex should exist in one central location (well, it doesn't have to be at the EXACT center of the booth... or centre in Europe). From there, any and all projectors can access any movie it wants. Hell, I have multiple PS3s in my house and they can each stream different HD video from my computer in a different room without having a copy stored locally on each system. Maybe if movie theaters used Monster® ethernet cable they'd have enough bandwidth to do this. Actually, maybe use something a little better, like terabit ethernet.

Seriously, though... any other setup besides what I describe will be looked back upon by people from the future and laughed at because it is so primitive. Shuffling data files around? Please. [Roll Eyes]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-18-2010 05:47 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If fiber were used...the central location would work in any complex. One thing the industry would have to deal with is having the possibility of multiple projectors (datablocks) attached to the same player. Note too, you would still have to have enough copies to deal with as many theatres that are playing the movie at the same time or redesign systems so multiple theatres can play the same file without speed/access issues.

I would think that paranoia with security would be as much a hindrance as anything. But with fiber transmission, distance/bandwidth is not an issue.

Now there is the "putting all of your eggs in one basket" issue. Imagine an entire complex going down because "the" server failed.

Steve

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-18-2010 07:30 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is a huge complex here in SLC that has mostly fibre transmission. They had runs over 330 feet so fibre was the best route. Me... I'm still waitin for the death of DLP in general as was predicted on these pages... especially now that 4K DLP exists operationally so to speak.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005


 - posted 09-18-2010 08:10 PM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Isn't it AMAZING what you can do if you have enough cash or credit? Louis

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 09-19-2010 04:22 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
Now there is the "putting all of your eggs in one basket" issue. Imagine an entire complex going down because "the" server failed.

You can build as much redundancy into the system as you want to, or want to pay for. It's always a question of how much risk you're prepared to accept against how much you're prepared to pay to reduce it.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 09-19-2010 12:47 PM      Profile for Tony Bandiera Jr   Email Tony Bandiera Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Stephen Furley
You can build as much redundancy into the system as you want to, or want to pay for. It's always a question of how much risk you're prepared to accept against how much you're prepared to pay to reduce it.
Oh c'mon..... do you really think that theatre owners are really gonna spend the extra for the redundancy when they grumble about the cost of maintenance on 35mm machines? [Roll Eyes]

If you've got owners who rip out their 35mm equipment (in the cases where it could stay in place, even if it's not easy/convienient) leaving them exposed to dark houses when the [dlp] goes down, what makes you think they are gonna think ahead to a backup server for the entire complex?

I've said it before, I'm all for technology when it advances the cause, but D-Crapema is added expense, planned obsolescence, inferior picture resolution and NO cost benefit to the people who need the help, in other words the exhibitors.

Indeed Digital Cinema will be the death of the theatres!!

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 09-19-2010 02:57 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I've said it before, I'm all for technology when it advances the cause, but D-Crapema is added expense, planned obsolescence, inferior picture resolution and NO cost benefit to the people who need the help, in other words the exhibitors.

Indeed Digital Cinema will be the death of the theatres!!

I must disagree with you Tony. I'm guessing you haven't actually SEEN some of the awful prints being made today? Oh wait, you're in California. You probably hardly ever play a print made at Deluxe in Canada. Your prints would've mostly been made at Deluxe in California (which churns out good prints). Come visit sometime and I'll treat you to what the central and east side of the country has to deal with. When compared to those shitty prints, yeah, digital IS better.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-19-2010 05:19 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I'm still waitin for the death of DLP in general as was predicted on these pages... especially now that 4K DLP exists operationally so to speak.
Yeah, me too! [Wink]

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Todd McCracken
Master Film Handler

Posts: 263
From: Northridge, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2008


 - posted 09-22-2010 12:09 AM      Profile for Todd McCracken     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For Satellite delivery the cost is on the integrator/distributor. The benefit to us is that we can deliver a film and get info on its delivery in real time. Not to mention we don't have to pay people to copy/verify/ship/receive.

As far as internet delivery, we shall see. But the major issue with that is that most sites have painfully slow internet connections. Sending 4 of 5 movies at 150gb to 220gb ea is not really realistic at this point, though that may change soon. [Smile]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 09-22-2010 01:10 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I'm still waitin for the death of DLP in general as was predicted on these pages.
DLP will die, but that doesn't mean the return to film. It just means friggin' lasers, biotch!

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 09-22-2010 01:10 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yet, I can start seeing 3D as the death of DCinema unless prices can be more respectable and stuff that comes out of "Hollyrock" can be more entertaining and worthwhile.

It's really going to have an effect on the industry as a whole for both produciton and exhibitor.

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 09-22-2010 03:10 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Todd McCracken
As far as internet delivery, we shall see. But the major issue with that is that most sites have painfully slow internet connections. Sending 4 of 5 movies at 150gb to 220gb ea is not really realistic at this point, though that may change soon.

The problem is the internet providers. Even though cable providers claim up to 30mbs for their internet service you never get anywhere near that because the cable company puts a cap on the actual download limits to prevent jams on the broadband system.

As far as death of cinema goes, I don't think changing what we use to project movies is going to kill anything. Day and date releases is a different story and the thing that I worry about most when it comes to a theatre being able to stay alive.

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