Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: why is the "digital transition period" being handled so badly?

my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

»	Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE » Operations » Digital Cinema Forum » why is the "digital transition period" being handled so badly? (Page 7)

This topic comprises 9 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Author

Topic: why is the "digital transition period" being handled so badly?

Victor Liorentas
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 800
From: london ontario canada
Registered: May 2009

posted 10-26-2011 02:21 PM

I have seen Bluray on our 30 foot wide screen plenty of times to know what the weakness is using a 3 chip 720 dlp Infocus 777.
Darker shots look pretty good but artifacts appear in brighter shots which look like compression artifacts to me.
I would think this would be even more apparent on a full D Cinema machine.

| IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-26-2011 02:35 PM

I have seen Blu-Ray on smallish cinema screens (25' range) played on D-cinema projectors with good scalers. It looks pretty good. But it is not film and is not DCP. Never mind that many Blu-Rays are mastered improperly, with grain reduction and a separate "sounds good on a home system" sound mix.

But, yes, I will admit that part of my objection here is to the idea that Blu-Ray is a consumer format. We should not be using the same equipment that normal people have in their living rooms to present feature length material in cinemas for which we are charging $10 (or so) per ticket. Our standards should be higher than that, both for quality and for reliability. DVD was never all that reliable as an exhibition format, and Blu-Ray is worse. Add to that the issue of programming trailers and snipes and that of automating the show (important for a multiplex, not so much for a single-screen), and the limitations of the format become readily apparent.

That said, I can totally see BR becoming a sort of (non-)standard format for low-budget art-house releases (with larger art-house titles being on 35mm). That does not mean that this is a good idea, or that we should not fight against it while we still can. I might re-consider my opinion if someone makes a reliable, high-quality, professional-grade player with HD-SDI output and without regional restrictions and with an automation interface, however.

| IP: Logged

Olivier Lemaire
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 118
From: Paris, Ile de France, France
Registered: Jan 2010

posted 10-26-2011 02:44 PM

quote:

quote: Scott Norwood
Blu-Ray in theatres is a load of crap. It's a consumer format
(...)
(...)We just have a standard def projector, so the difference between the two is not noticeble, and besides, no one is coming to it anyway.

Sounds like a fact...

| IP: Logged

Justin Hamaker
Film God

Posts: 2253
From: Lakeport, CA USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 10-26-2011 03:48 PM

quote: Victor Liorentas
I have seen Bluray on our 30 foot wide screen plenty of times to know what the weakness is using a 3 chip 720 dlp Infocus 777.

Obviously a consumer grade projector is going to have an inferior picture compared to DCI content played on a DCinema projector. But you're comparing apples to oranges and wondering why they aren't the same.

When I showed Avatar it was on our 2K DCinema projector. We were running HDMI from the Bluray player to the projector and using an HDMI-DVI adapter into the projector.

Given that Bluray content is 1920 x 1080 I don't really see how this is a major downgrade from Dcinema content.

| IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-26-2011 03:50 PM

Youtube can deliver 1920x1080 as well. That does not mean that the quality can equal DCI material. There is more to image quality than resolution (e.g. color depth, greyscale, compression artifacts, etc.).

| IP: Logged

Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 10-26-2011 05:03 PM

I've run several blu-ray test screenings on a set up similar to what Justin describes: Sony blu-ray player, HDMI-DVI cable, DVI input on an NEC NC2000 with macros set up for blu-ray onto an approx 27-36' screen (flat and scope). USL JSD-100 sound processor set up to decode SPDIF with analog Dolby Stereo as a backup. It looked and sounded great in that former (no longer certified but still equipped) 200-seat THX house. The GM for that place (admittedly a non-techie) was elated with the results. I know I was pleasantly surprised and impressed with the results - me, an anal-retentive tech geek with a reputation for calling 'em as I sees 'em, regardless of the consequences.

In the end, audiences in that small isolated market will have the possibility of seeing titles that otherwise would never make it to a theater in that market, with the sound and picture impact of a real theater - something that the typical home AV set up could not come close to matching.

| IP: Logged

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-26-2011 05:59 PM

quote: Justin Hamaker
'm forced to believe most of the naysayers are only going by the idea that Bluray is a consumer product rather than because they have seen it projected on a movie screen.

I would have to agree with this. I'm not a technical guy, but I suppose I know when something looks good. We've run a couple of Blu-Rays and one regular DVD for special shows. Each time we've put up a sign and made a pre-show announcement that we were using the BR or DVD.

The Blu-Rays looked spectacular. No complaints, in fact people came up to me afterward and were amazed how good it looked. I would've been hard pressed to tell the difference between that picture and a DC picture. Even the DVD looked mighty good -- in fact to me the weakness of it was the sound, but the movie was a 1980 film (Urban Cowboy) so that was more likely the problem.

When we first installed our system we were running some Looney Tunes DVDs as a test, just because I am highly familiar with those films and would know if the color was off or whatever. They looked spectacular, as well.

Just for reference purposes, we have an Oppo Blu-Ray player. The only objection I have to it is, you can't turn-off the onscreen display of the "play" and "Pause" icons.

I agree there should be a pro player with an automation interface and would definitely look seriously at a machine like that. It would make Christmas matinee life much easier!

| IP: Logged

Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 10-26-2011 06:23 PM

My most rented "box" is a dual Blu ray setup with an 5.1 audio decoder.....which has been used for many screenings with studio supplied Blu Ray disk + back up; replacing many Betacam and HDcam rentals. Images of 18 to 30 feet with "acceptable" image and sound.

| IP: Logged

Jock Blakley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 218
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 10-26-2011 07:58 PM

I've shown BRD on screen more times than I'd care to mention.

I'm sure they're just wonderful at home, but on a 63-foot screen through a Barco DP4K-32B they do start to come apart. Noisy, grainy, visible compression artefacts, and that general "low bitrate" look.

Of course they're still ahead of DVDs, and there's no question they're better than nothing, but I'd not want to see them as anything other than an emergency backup. DCI-standard content may be the same resolution, but as Bobby explains, it's got the edge on BRD in many other ways.

Of course to audiences these things are sometimes not such an issue - our presentation of the BRD of LOGAN'S RUN garnered us a comment on how it was a fabulous new print (and one time we ran the DVD of NIGHT OF THE IGUANA on a clapped-out Digital Projection Highlite 6400 and were congratulated on finding such a great-quality 16mm print... go figure)

BRD's main trouble, and the one that makes me quite afraid of using it, is that it's im-bloody-possible to present reliably. On-screen-displays abound, you press play and it takes three weeks to roll the feature, players decide you actually don't want them to be paused, there's unskippable FBI warnings... you just can't win if you're trying to get a really nice seamless professional presentation.

Not to say that DCI material is the be-all-and-end-all: you can make a DCP that simply preserves an average-quality transfer from the film (as the DCP of JURASSIC PARK we presented a few nights back showed... we were quite unhappy with the lack of contrast and the very noticeable presence of noise).

Scott's objection is also a valid one - this is a consumer format with its reliability problems and also its PR problems. It's bad enough people can get a practically-2K copy of the film within a few months of release, but how can anybody justify their admission costs to an audience that think "I have the exact same copy of this film at home".

If we must abandon the DCI already for non-mainstream releases I'd be really much happier if it was to be on Digital Betacam or HDCAM.

(definitely spoken like somebody who doesn't pay the bills)

| IP: Logged

Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 10-26-2011 09:25 PM

Big fight between home theatre digital and the cinema digital is the pixel size on the screen itself.

Smaller the pixel size, the better and sharper the image.

Home HD units have pixel size range from .32 up to .40 plus (depends on the size of screen diag measurements to remain in the HD 2K requirements of 1080 x 2048). Analog TV was clear up to .92. CRT computer monitors got all the way down to .26

I used to watch TV via the tuner from a VCR to an old AMIGA monitor, which the monitor had a pixel size of .39 - it was a pretty sharp picture for a 14 inch monitor using it's composite input.

I can see BR looking fantastic being shot through a 2k DCP unit-same requirement as the home unit just larger..just don't sit too close to the screen..

| IP: Logged

Jonathan Goeldner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1360
From: Washington, District of Columbia
Registered: Jun 2008

posted 10-27-2011 11:00 AM

quote: Justin Hamaker
I'm just curious to know how many who are knocking Bluray on the theatre screen have actually seen a Bluray on the theatre screen? As I posted in another thread, I recently showed Avatar on one of my screens via Bluray and the picture was absolutely beautiful. There was nothing about the picture which made me think I was watching a "consumer" product rather than something intended for the big screen.

I'm forced to believe most of the naysayers are only going by the idea that Bluray is a consumer product rather than because they have seen it projected on a movie screen.

The Avalon here in DC presented 'The Best and the Brightest' via blu-ray and surprisingly looked very impressive. The sharpness and colours were spot on.

| IP: Logged

Brian Guckian
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 594
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 10-27-2011 03:21 PM

FWIW, according to IMDB The Best and the Brightest was shot on Red One, not on film.

| IP: Logged

Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 10-28-2011 12:36 AM

The main problem with DVD or bluray discs is reliability, Some movies like Avatar do look stunning but not all are mastered with anywhere near such effort.
It's THAT moment when one freezes in front of several hundred people that seriously changes your opinion about them! If you choose to run a second player 1 or 2 minutes behind for that rare emergency, that makes a lot of sense in a professional operation. Nothing is worse than restarting a commercial disc whilst the audience waits!

| IP: Logged

Kris Verhanneman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 182
From: Belgium
Registered: Dec 2009

posted 10-28-2011 02:12 AM

We did try it.

Had some fun with it in the beginning of our digital cinema experiance (our boss told us to try everything).
We (projection crew) screened standart DVD (Mission impossible SE01 on a screen that is 10 m high, concerts, ...) Made the upgrade from external 6 channel to optical (thanks to the arrival of the DMA8+) and the last test we did was 'The Dark knight' on Blu Ray.

So yes it can have a nice view but it still is no DCP. That said, we will be showing 'Alien' within a few weeks. Not sure of the state of the 35mm. And what the costumers would prefer. A nice Blu Ray presentation. Or the feel of the 'original'film?

| IP: Logged

William F Green
Film Handler

Posts: 84
From: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 10-28-2011 10:29 AM

As I made the 'bluRay anyone?' comment I though I should chip-in again with some of our direct experiences.
One of the reasons I was suggesting BluRay is that it gets around all that nonsense of KDM's etc. The very first KDM we were sent recently was wrong - not a good start. Then the third one was also wrong, so 2 out 3 were incorrect.

Domestic equipment/formats are less reliable than commercial grade stuff - in theory, but so-far we have yet to have a DVD or BD failure. And bearing in-mind the low price of BD players you can afford to have several spare players around if that's a concern.
Up until this point we have been projecting occasional BD on a non DCI projector. We have used BD as it means we don't have to have somebody (me in this case!) make-up a 35mm print and in some cases it also works out cheaper for us.
To my mind (although it looks good) the LCD projector we use has a lot less contrast than film, but the public don't seem to notice anyway, with feedback being all positive.

We've been testing our recently acquired NEC NC800 with BluRay and it (to my surprise I must admit) looks absolutely stunning. It only looks very marginally worse than a 2K DCP and that's using analogue component inputs - not even HDMI (no HDCP on the NEC). On our small test screen a BluRay looks pretty much like a film original to me.

There IS certainly an issue with menu's and it often takes several mins to reach the start of the feature. Some BD's will not stay on pause for more than 4 mins either. These are all challenging to say the least, but nonetheless once you are aware of these and have a machine cued-up with a second machine to run DVD trailers it is possible to put on a reasonably slick presentation. But this really is only applicable to our type of single screen operation without automation I guess.

We are a cinema and do run 35mm (or soon to be DCP with the NEC) when appropriate or when available - but sometimes it's worth exploring other options, and so-far our experience with BluRays AND even DVD's has been positive. I don't think the movie/cinema experience is only about quality, it's also about content and the context that content is viewed in. The right content shown on a technically inferior format in a cinema setting is often preferable to watching at home as an experience.

To give a some examples we've just successfully screened two BD's (all with correct licenses etc) which are in fact available for anybody to buy and both were more successful in terms of audience numbers compared to the 35mm feature we screened on the same weekend. Both BD's were cheaper for us than the 35mm feature and took more money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should abandon the best quality format available to us for an inferior one, I'm just saying that there are some cases where it makes sense both practically and financially to use BD or DVD and rubbishing BD because it's not a pro-format is doing it an injustice.

By the way I would never advise customers that we were screening on DVD or BD. Most don't notice so why tell them anyway? I've always believed that it is the content we should be advertising to our customers rather than the technology used to present it.

| IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 9 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Printer-friendly view of this topic

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.