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Topic: why is the "digital transition period" being handled so badly?

Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 11-01-2011 02:48 PM

Well on the digital conversion front, my new 3D screens for the conversion were just delivered. I don't have a firm start date but assume it is a matter of two to three weeks now.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-01-2011 06:41 PM

quote: William F Green
One of the reasons I was suggesting BluRay is that it gets around all that nonsense of KDM's etc. The very first KDM we were sent recently was wrong - not a good start. Then the third one was also wrong, so 2 out 3 were incorrect.

I have yet to have that happen to me in over half a gazillion installs. Someone at the distributor level at your end must be new at his-her job.

Mark

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Justin Hamaker
Film God

Posts: 2253
From: Lakeport, CA USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 11-01-2011 07:05 PM

I have had a few KDM issues. Things like not receiving a 7.1 KDM for my 7.1 house. But nothing major. And every time I have called about a KDM issue I have received new keys within an hour.

This real issue with KDMs was seen last week with Puss in Boots. There was a problem with the 7.1 track on the 3D version. Because the keys were not active until 8:00am the Thursday before opening, theatres did not have a chance to QC the presentation early enough to get replacement drives in time for the first showing.

I can't help wondering how many theatres wound up giving out refunds Friday afternoon because their first show was the first time the picture had run.

Hopefully this disaster will cause the studios to make keys active 2 days before the opening day.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 11-02-2011 08:22 PM

William bought second hand equipment. There was no integrator involved. So quite obviously there was no one around with the necessary know how to initiate the logistics for proper KDM handling at first.

- Carsten

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-02-2011 08:46 PM

quote: Carsten Kurz
There was no integrator involved. So quite obviously there was no one around with the necessary know how to initiate the logistics for proper KDM handling at first.

All he needed to do was give the distributor the serial number of the server... nothing more... nothing less. In the States and I assume over seas there is a form you fill out with all that stuff and fax or e-mail it in. I have sucessfully gotten KDM's 5 min. before a show on new installs fomr Technicolor.

Fortunately I don't have any 7.1 issues at all!!

Mark

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William F Green
Film Handler

Posts: 84
From: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 11-02-2011 10:13 PM

True enough that there was no integrator involved (I suppose you might count me as the installer) but that's not the reason the KDM's were wrong. As Mark says I filled-out a couple of 'Digital readiness' forms with serial numbers etc.
The first KDM was a simple date error - the KDM ended too early. The second one took multiple attempts to get right (about 4 or 5). When it finally worked they told me the problem was that they had given me a KDM for a DCP with 5.1 sound and our DCP was a 7.1 version. I wouldn't have expected that problem but it's early days for us on digital and we are still learning about all the things that can go wrong I guess.
Obviously it needs a human being to produce a key with the right date-range etc so mistakes can be made, but it's a complication we never had with 35mm - once we had the print it worked.

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Jock Blakley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 218
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 11-02-2011 11:29 PM

KDMs have been the least of our digital cinema troubles... nothing like OF GODS AND MEN and the Case of The Subtitles That Only Worked For Every Twelfth Line of Dialogue.

We've had a few KDMs that cut it fine on start or finish times - and on the other hand there's one distributor we go through who's given us 180-day-validity KDMs for eleven screenings each of two titles.

That said we have gotten a bit touchy about the "two-minutes-before-time" starts, and when for our most recent D-Cinema show (JURASSIC PARK) we were suffering ingest troubles we called Universal and asked for it to start a day earlier so we'd have time to pre-screen. They had a new KDM to us within fifteen minutes.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-03-2011 10:18 AM

While I love Blu-ray as a consumer video playback format, it still can be a pain in the ass.

In a theatrical environment you would need to continually make sure the player had the latest firmware and copy protection software patches. It's not much fun to load a Blu-ray disc and find out the player needs a firmware update in order to play it. My Playstation 3 at home gets updated frequently in part because of updates to Blu-ray's copy protection system. It seems like every other time I load a Blu-ray movie into my notebook's BD burner I have to download a "patch" for PowerDVD (which really just replaces the entire program). The updates go fairly quick thanks to broadband Internet connections. If the player isn't connected to the Internet it can be a real PITA depending on the player model (the PS3 is easy to update, some stand-alone players are very user un-friendly to update).

Then there's the usual BD-Java based menus you sometimes can't skip past. I really despise many of the rental-specific video store discs that have loads of forced movie trailers and commercials you can't skip (God forbid they disable the fast-forward button function). Worse, those rental specific discs often don't have chapter stops. If you stop the movie you can't get back to your previous spot without a hell of a lot of fast forwarding. I really want to punch a Warner Home Video executive in the mouth over this shit.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 11-03-2011 10:33 AM

When we bought our Sony nearly three years ago, I installed the current firmware available at that date and since then never touched it - and never had any issues with any BluRay we played. Standalone players are quite different from Playstations and computerbased players/drives.

That's exactly why we dismissed a computer solution and even the PS3 and chose a standalone player from a major BluRay endorser like Sony or Panasonic.

To overcome all issues with screensavers, Menus, forced trailers, etc., one definetly needs a HDMI splitter or switcher and a 24p capable preview monitor. Adds something like 250US$ to the bill.

- Carsten

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-03-2011 11:33 AM

quote: Carsten Kurz
When we bought our Sony nearly three years ago, I installed the current firmware available at that date and since then never touched it - and never had any issues with any BluRay we played. Standalone players are quite different from Playstations and computerbased players/drives.

Stand alone Blu-ray players are not immune from needing firmware updates. I've personally updated the players for a few of my friends because they either couldn't figure out how to do it or were too scared of bricking their machines to try.

If the player is connected to the Internet it's not such a big deal. Quite a few people don't have the players connected. Most stand alone players have only a standard Ethernet connection. Not everyone wants to run a network cable to a player attached to their TV set in the living room or bedroom. Players with built-in WiFi are becoming more common. The PS3 has always had it.

The biggest update pain I encountered with a stand alone Blu-ray player was a certain Panasonic model. Despite its built-in SD card slot it would only take a firmware update from a CD-R disc that was formatted only in a certain way.

By comparison, a Playstation 3 can apply an update from any type of removable storage as long as the update is stored in a PS3\UPDATE folder. All stand alone Blu-ray players should be able to apply updates this way. You can back up the PS3's system software to a USB flash drive, put in a higher capacity hard disc and then restore the system to that new disc drive. It's pretty nice.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 11-03-2011 12:46 PM

It kind of defeats the argument as well when one has to first update it to the newest version for it to be left alone. If there were no problems... you'd just have left the shit alone to begin with.

And personally, I'd think for guaranteeing accurate playback and avoiding all these issues, it'd be a not-so-bad idea of looking at playing back through a PC with software that removes all the encryption. Sure, it's legally a gray area but if you've got the license paid for to play it back, I doubt they'd bat an eye. Plus, it's much easier to find software that will do this for you than some physical unit.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 11-03-2011 03:21 PM

quote: Chris Slycord
when one has to first update it to the newest version for it to be left alone

Claimed who? Even that firmware update was not demanded or necessary. Everyone can guess how many DVD and BluRay Players sit in living rooms with no Internet connection ever. These are consumer devices. If these were so dependent on current firmware to play current discs, BluRay would already be dead.

Anyone claiming that accurate computer based playback of high quality media was easier to do than on standalone players has never set up a HomeTheater PC with proper frame rate and multichannel/audio sync handling. This fills endless columns on AV boards.
Been there, done that - it's never 'better' than on standalone players, nor easier nor cheaper nor reliable. It's a solution for people who make more of a hobby from playing around with hard- and software upgrades and patches than actually watching content.

But all this is clearly off-topic and should go to this recent thread:

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000759;p=3

- Carsten

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 11-04-2011 11:09 AM

quote: Carsten Kurz
Claimed who? Even that firmware update was not demanded or necessary. Everyone can guess how many DVD and BluRay Players sit in living rooms with no Internet connection ever. These are consumer devices. If these were so dependent on current firmware to play current discs, BluRay would already be dead.

That's because most of the people who have bluray players bought them quite recently rather than the players occasionally needing updates. I've had to update firmware on several players because they wouldn't play a particular new movie.

quote: Carsten Kurz
Anyone claiming that accurate computer based playback of high quality media was easier to do than on standalone players has never set up a HomeTheater PC with proper frame rate and multichannel/audio sync handling. This fills endless columns on AV boards.

I wasn't talking in general, although it appeared as if I was. I'm talking for the people who have equipment that won't work with HDCP. Finding some physical piece of equipment that strips that stuff out for you is becoming harder and harder. Although, yes setting up a PC with frame rate and audio syncing is a pain...

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 11-25-2011 06:25 PM

quote: Justin Hamaker
I'm just curious to know how many who are knocking Bluray on the theatre screen have actually seen a Bluray on the theatre screen? As I posted in another thread, I recently showed Avatar on one of my screens via Bluray and the picture was absolutely beautiful. There was nothing about the picture which made me think I was watching a "consumer" product rather than something intended for the big screen.

I'm forced to believe most of the naysayers are only going by the idea that Bluray is a consumer product rather than because they have seen it projected on a movie screen.

In reality Justin...it is because your skills of evaluation suck! It is the honest truth. You are in the industry and look at DCP every day and SHOULD know better than the average consumer that thinks we have been using DVDs for the last decade or more.

The "tells" of BluRay are many and are quite obvious. I think your other posts about DCinema being crisp is what does you in, in most cases. What goes into an image is more than sharp pixels. It is what is contained in those pixels

BluRay has a form of compression that is quite visible, particularly on the big screen...you may notice backgrounds with an unnatural steadiness to them and other motion artifacts that show up as a bit of lack in fluidity in motion.

Then there is the whole color space thing but that is going to be less obvious to the untrained eye. DCinema will have notable improvement in both color and motion on its image...particularly on 2D (4:4:4 color space) and if you are using DLPs.

-Steve

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-25-2011 07:26 PM

I have seen quite a few Blu-Rays that look so good on a screen you could charge admission and no one would know it wasn't the actual film or DCP. Anyone that underestimates the capability of Blu-Ray definately hasn't seen what it is capable of.

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