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Topic: subtitles in digital

Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 05-11-2012 02:01 PM

Do the projector have no way to set the time/date through NTP upon reboot? Because if it's an issue of having the server and projector mismatching on the dates, that would be something to look into.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-11-2012 02:13 PM

What kind of font format is CineCanvas using? Something proprietary or a mainstream format like TrueType or OpenType?

The OpenType font format can support far larger character sets than TrueType or Postscript Type 1, up to 65,536 glyphs. Even with that capability it is impossible for a single typeface font file to support all the world's languages. Any "one size fits all" solution for displaying subtitles anywhere in the world would need a serious set of typefaces to cover every language along with the appropriate setup on both the provider and end user level. It sounds to me like this isn't happening in digital cinema installations.

Computer typefaces can have tremendous differences from one font file to the next. Some have built in support for Latin, Cyrillic and Greek character sets and appropriate accents to cover all the languages in Europe. Most fonts distributed in the United States are geared only for the Latin alphabet.

Some of the commercial font files I have feature lots of design extras (small capitals character sets, alternate characters, swash characters for script faces, etc.). It's great for a language using the Latin alphabet, but it sucks if you need it to spell out something in Korean or Tamil characters.

Not only do the right font files have to be present, but someone has to correctly make the subtitle file(s) and include that with the DCP.

quote: Steve Guttag
I just don't get why Captions are so hard when TVs/DVDs...etc have been doing it for decades.

Television sets, DVD & Blu-ray discs and disc players are all make to work in specific regions of the world. There is no single retail Blu-ray disc or player that is going to work flawlessly for every international market.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 05-11-2012 02:52 PM

Synchronizing the date is the 11th step in a process that begins with "main - starting application (version x.x.x)"

Obtaining an IP address is the 8th step, so it probably has to wait for that to happen before it can sync date/time. I wonder what the clock source is..?

(FWIW 18 seconds elapse between step 1 and step 11.)

After the date is set, the next step is to login the TI link decryptor.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-11-2012 03:56 PM

Typically, the font is transferred with the DCP (each "reel" is supposed to have its associated font file). 99-100% of the time it seems to be Bobby's favorite...Arial.ttf!

The problem I find is that it botching the subtitle this is as Manny describes...completely random...it will work, and then it won't If you look at the logs...there seems to be this pre-disposition that if the subtitle thing doesn't work right away or glitches...the system turns them off and stops trying.

I hear that the industry is going to move from the "interop" standard to the SMPTE standard that "should" improve subtitle reliability. It just seems hokeyer than it should. Again, every ICP update seems like they are trying to make it work so it could affect any DLP based projector (Don't know about Sony).

It really shouldn't be this hard.

Manny, to re-establish subtitles...did you just stop the player (by using the actual stop (not pause) and restart or did you reboot?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-11-2012 04:16 PM

Yes, I hate Arial. It's an ugly Frankensteined hodge podge that grabs style cues from Helvetica, Akzidenz Grotesk, Univers and News Gothic without generating anything eye-pleasing. And it's made to fit the same default tracking of "old" Helvetica found on a lot of Mac-based computers over the years.

If they're using a basic TrueType version of Arial that could be part of the problem. Lots of computers running Windows XP or earlier have the TrueType version of Arial installed. PCs running Vista or Win7 have the OpenType version which features a much expanded Unicode-based character set. If someone authors subtitles basing them on arial.otf and the server is playing the titles via arial.ttf chances are good a lot of characters may be dropped or wrong characters are displayed.

Given how much money movie productions spend on production and advertising it would seem like they could pony up a little scratch to license better subtitle fonts than Arial, maybe even use something thematically appropriate for the movie instead of something ugly and generic.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-11-2012 05:01 PM

See now...this brings up a bit of controversy in the caption market...the DCP is supposed to have its OWN font file with it and a file for EACH real. As such, the movie should not be able to have insufficient front description since the movie can have any font it wants/needs.

However, some authoring systems are quite sloppy and do NOT include the font file...this is in violation of the DCI spec...Dolby will simply not show a caption since there is no font file...Doremi and GDC will have cached the Arial.ttf from a previous file and substitute it...in violation of DCI spec...this will give the Dolby player the illusion of being fussy (for following the rules...if you want text on the screen...give me the text)...

However, what Manny is describing is something completely different. This is a VERY random occurrence where just one show (not movie) will either not show the text or will have issues with the text. I have one art house that has had two botched shows now out of about 155 and counting. Of those two, they were different titles running on different servers and different projectors...all other shows of those titles ran without incident. So we are down to 1% issue and falling but even that is way too much. There shouldn't be ANY subtitle/caption issue in this day and age...the technology should be simple, not complicated. And, quite frankly, a "default" font should be in the DCI spec so a player can fall back on that if none are present in the DCP...furthermore if one is trying to have subtitles, the system should try like heck to resync if there is an issue not just throw up its hands and thing "oh well."

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 05-11-2012 05:59 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
Manny, to re-establish subtitles...did you just stop the player (by using the actual stop (not pause) and restart or did you reboot?

I tried the easiest (least time-consuming) thing first -- stop the movie and then re-start it. That didn't resolve it. (Although this is how we resolved the issue back in January.)

Next, I tried rebooting the projector. Still nothing.

Rebooted the DSS200 -- which takes 6 minutes -- "Transport Not Available."

Rebooted the projector a 2nd time, and it finally worked.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-11-2012 08:59 PM

Manny...which software are you running on the DSS200? Also which softwares are you running on your Barcos?

For Dolby, you should be AT LEAST on 4.3.5.9 though you are entitled to 4.3.5.13 as well. For Barco 1.8.85 on the projector a 3.2.340 on the ICP. The Barco software will have the least affect here. It should be noted that 4.3.5.13 will greatly improve the CAT 862 connecting up (transport not found). You will need a KDM for 4.3.5.13 since the mediablock software is changed.

The most current Dolby software is 4.4.0.48 and is DCI compliant...no new features are added on that but restrictions are put in place on Cinelink and the amount of "nudging" that can be done to the secure clock. I see no point in upgrading unless you are required to for VPF arrangements.

Also...please, please...send your logs to Dolby (I'll assist if need be) so if there is a trend as to why this is happening, it can be found.

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Stu Jamieson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 524
From: Buccan, Qld, Australia
Registered: Jan 2008

posted 05-12-2012 04:36 AM

quote: Bobby H.
Given how much money movie productions spend on production and advertising it would seem like they could pony up a little scratch to license better subtitle fonts than Arial, maybe even use something thematically appropriate for the movie instead of something ugly and generic.

That is a superb idea! Obviously the server/projector will not be capable of dishing up brilliant subs like that in Nightwatch/Daywatch but, man, why the hell not make the subs part of the movie experience?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-12-2012 09:29 AM

It would be a heck of a lot better than having a computer throw rough looking Arial-based titles on the screen. I have a big problem with Blu-ray players doing the same thing. The type isn't anti-aliased, giving it an ancient console video game look. Player/server generated subtitles usually have default letter spacing which makes the on-screen type look even worse.

With film, the subtitles were baked into the print. Typefaces other than Arial were used and the letter spacing was usually properly adjusted -like what is typically seen on opening and end credits of most movies. If a little more work was put into it a d-cinema server could do a great job with displaying subtitles.

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Jussi Siponen
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Mikkeli, Itä-Suomi, FINLAND
Registered: Jan 2010

posted 05-12-2012 11:22 AM

About fonts (from the TI Subtitle Specification document v1.1):

quote:
The LoadFont tag is used to load a TrueType or OpenType font used in the subtitle file from the server. It specifies the font location as an URI (URL) and identifies the font with an ID which is used as the reference in later Font tags. LoadFont, if specified, must precede any Font element and Subtitle element. If no LoadFont element is present in the XML file, then a default font will be used. The LoadFont element has only attributes, and no values, so it can be specified as an empty tag as shown below. Note: In the current version of the spec, only one (1) font can be loaded for a presentation. If more than one font is specified, only the first will be used. In addition, the size of the font must be 640KB or less. Fonts that are larger than 640KB in size may be reduced, see Appendix B for details. These limitations may be increased or eliminated in future releases.

I.e. you can choose not to include a font file and you don't even have to do a LoadFont. But if you don't, then the unspecified "default font" is going to be used - which is likely to be both a) ugly and b) contain only the glyphs necessary to render english text (no umlauts, accents, EURO symbol, etc).

Regarding the use of the Arial font: I'm not actually sure, but I have a feeling this may a copyright violation (Monotype Corporation holds the copyright for Arial). The license does allow you to "temporarily download this font to a printer or other output device to help print content".

The whole debate could be side-stepped by using free fonts, e.g. the Liberation fonts suite.

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Harold Hallikainen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 906
From: Denver, CO, USA
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 05-12-2012 11:35 AM

I work on closed captions, not subtitles, but both use the same XML format for the timed text files. I'm on a SMPTE ad hoc group that is very carefully going through the current standard for the timed text files to try to make it more clear and to get more uniform rendering of subtitles by various systems. In addition, ISDCF holds several plugfests each year (another one in a few weeks). A substantial portion of each plugfest is devoted to subtitle rendering. ISDCF Subtitle Compare shows some results from January where differences in rendering are flagged. These were reviewed to determine if there is a problem in implementation or a problem in the standard.

So, there is recognition that there are issues with subtitles, and they're being worked on.

Harold
(designer of USL Closed Captioning System)

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 05-12-2012 12:14 PM

Steve, my software is as follows:

DSS200...............4.2.1 (3)
(I'm installing a version of 4.3 next week. We didn't want to do it in the middle of a semester.)

Barco................1.8.85
TI...................3.2.340
TI Link Decryptor....1.4.19

For something like "Aliens" I like the idea of subtitles appearing on-screen with the "whoosh" of a flamethrower. The words could then burn out just in time for the next phrase to appear.

For "The Exorcist" they could appear to be scratched onto the screen by some unseen evil force, like the words "Help Me" appeared on Regan's tummy.

Or, in "Se7en" they could replace e7ery instance of the letter "V" with a "7"

For musicals - revive the "follow the bouncing ball" idea

3D titles SIMPLY MUST leap off-screen and land in your lap. (That one's a no-brainer.)

I kid! I hate the idea.

It's right up there with fancy menus on DVD's and Blurays that take forever to load and can't be circumvented. Oh, sure! It'll start off innocently enough. (Like CGI.) But it will only be a matter of time before the concept spirals out of control and ends up hindering enjoyment of the actual movie.

Subtitles are a "necessary evil." They are not intended as an integral part of the experience. I just want to be able to read them. That's all.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-12-2012 02:16 PM

quote: Manny Knowles
It's right up there with fancy menus on DVD's and Blurays that take forever to load and can't be circumvented. Oh, sure! It'll start off innocently enough. (Like CGI.) But it will only be a matter of time before the concept spirals out of control and ends up hindering enjoyment of the actual movie.

Who said anything at all about animating subtitles or applying all sorts of special effects (or even 3D) to them?

The only thing I'm asking is that the subtitles actually look like they used to look when they were baked into film prints. I'm not asking for anything obtrusive. But I absolutely would prefer professional level typesetting like you see in the body copy of a magazine article or something like that. Default spaced Arial does not qualify at all in this regard. It looks like shit on the big screen.

quote: TI Subtitle Specification document v1.1
In addition, the size of the font must be 640KB or less. Fonts that are larger than 640KB in size may be reduced, see Appendix B for details.

Well that's not good. It's easy for an Asian language font file to surpass 640KB in size. For example, Kozuka Gothic Pro, an OpenType font supporting Japanese, Latin, Greek & Cyrillic alphabets (including a few others) is 3.5MB in size. That's one of the fonts that gets installed with Adobe Creative Suite software.

quote: Jussi Siponen
I'm not actually sure, but I have a feeling this may a copyright violation (Monotype Corporation holds the copyright for Arial).

It's possible. But Arial is so common I doubt if Monotype would even want to bother with pursuiing any legal action. With Arial being installed on virtually all Windows-based PCs and quite a few Macs as well it would make it tougher for Monotype to make a case a violation took place. It's a lot easier for a type foundry to prove a violation took place if the font being used is expensive and not bundled in any mainstream OS or office productivity software.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-12-2012 02:45 PM

The DCI spec and TI spec are not one and the same. The DCI spec definitely seems to allow for a "default font" and furthermore seem specify what the default font must have in it. Naturally, the default font may not convey the same impression that a specified font will.

That said...it does not seem like this is what is happening.

I'll "settle" for just VERY reliable text, of any quality for now.

-Steve

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