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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » subtitles in digital (Page 4)

 
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Author Topic: subtitles in digital
Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 05-12-2012 04:10 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This thread is hilarious, in that it sounds exactly like a standard software support issue:

Customer: Feature foo doesn't work. I am running version X of your software.

Vendor: You should be running version Y, patchlevel P. That will fix feature foo.

...time passes...

C: I upgraded to version Y, patchlevel P. Feature foo now works, but features bar and baz are now broken.

V: You should upgrade to version Z, patchlevel Qa17T, which was just released yesterday. That will solve all of your problems.

...time passes...

C: I upgraded to version Z, patchlevel Qa17T. It worked for ten minutes, and then everything crashed and the system will not boot. What should I do.

V: Restore from backups from when you were running version X. We are working on a fix. We will get back to you in two weeks. But it will require upgrades to your firmware and operating system.

I have little patience for vendors who inflict beta-quality software on the public, and then expect their customers to pay for upgrades and support contracts to make the software do what it was supposed to do in the first place. Is this really the future of cinema?

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 05-12-2012 04:45 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For the time being, I am going to make it a habit to check the projector logs just prior to showtime, for signs of the pesky "reboot" or whatever causes those events to appear in the log.

I'm also monitoring the CineCanvas screen on the Barco touch panel as the show gets underway. When things are working normally, "Subtitle Status" changes from "Disabled" to "Enabled" when the show starts.

I don't know what happens when we have a subtitle failure, but I'm guessing CineCanvas might show Subtitle Status stuck in the "Disabled" state. If that does indeed happen, then at least we have a more convenient means of knowing that there's a problem. We can then stop and restart before anything hits the screen. (All my shows have 17sec of black before dowswer open.)

But this is just something I'm prepared to do "for now." This is no way to live.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-12-2012 05:37 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott...it is this whole subtitle thing that is just so hokie. What has to transpire for it to work is just too complicated. To the best of my knowledge, no vendor has charged to make an existing feature work.

But if you look at the Release notes from TI...it seems like EVERY release they are messing with CineCanvas. As for Dolby (or the others)...they are steadily improving their stuff and getting it the way that customers want. The software updates really do start slowing down once things get stable. When series II first came out...software updates were daily (no kidding). The latest TI software main "feature" is allowing Series II machines HFR 3D. There are always "enhancements and bug fixes" but 3.2.340 came out at the end of 2011. Likewise, Barco's firmware has been at 1.8.85 for about 1/2 a year now...it mostly brought features, not fixes...but like others...they always sneak fixes in there.

The big thing from 4.3.5.9 to 4.3.5.13 is more stable mediablock handshake. 4.3.x.x has been out for quite some time now...4.3.2.2 was the start of "VNC" capabilities on the Dolby (a feature I use only occasionally...I much prefer Jupiter client unless I'm showing a remote client something). 4.3.5.9 fixed a "feature" that was only shown when working with another company's product. So there are various reasons for updated software...fixes normally come along for the ride (unless they are major and affecting the masses). And since Manny would be able to load 4.3.5.13 on for no money...why not?

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Harold Hallikainen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 906
From: Denver, CO, USA
Registered: Aug 2009

- posted 05-12-2012 05:56 PM      Profile for Harold Hallikainen   Author's Homepage   Email Harold Hallikainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Regarding fonts, character spacing, etc., one way to get the "burned in" subtitle look is to use png images for each subtitle. Both CineCanvas and SMPTE timed text files allow a subtitle instance to reference an image instead of text. This seems to work well except that currently there may be an issue with some systems if the png is designed for a 4k projector and running on a 2k projector and possibly the reverse. At the plugfest, I saw some really big pngs where the 4k targeted image ended up on a 2k projector.

Harold

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-12-2012 08:21 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Harold,

You all need to change the p to an s and have a slugfest.

Honestly...I don't give a flying fu.. about the burned in look or the font type...I'll settle for ugly OCR or the like...I want it to WORK EVERY EFFin TIME!!!!!!! Once you all get that happening on EVERY DCI compliant server...then worry about the appearance of a font...because if it does not (reliably) show...it doesn't have an appearance.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

- posted 05-13-2012 11:11 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The method of using raster-based .png images to display type on screen is just not very practical.

If the software was really good it would work with vector-based OpenType font files and display anti-aliased edges to type on the fly in real time. I don't care about adding effects like drop shadows, block shadows or outlines. It would be nice if the type didn't have the jagged, pixel-laden look of some console video game.

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Per Hauberg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 883
From: Malling, Denmark
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 05-25-2012 06:09 PM      Profile for Per Hauberg   Author's Homepage   Email Per Hauberg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Latest variant here:
For a week now, I have a film running a single show every afternoon. -That is: No audience for three days in a raw, so I go to stop the show after ten minutes or so, -whem I'm sure nobody wanna se it today. Every time, I have made this break in the scheduled show, the following show (different film) looses subtitles. -Tonite, I let it run for an empty house, and nexr show (same film as the other days) kept it's subtitles.
Whichcraft or just DSS200 getting girlie-offended [Roll Eyes]

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 05-25-2012 06:25 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting pattern. There's no such rhyme or reason when it comes to my setup though.

I always do a quick test-run a few hours before showtime, so I'm frequently stopping the show prematurely. Doesn't seem to be a factor here.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 05-25-2012 08:21 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is there a way to disable subtitles on purpose?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 05-25-2012 10:17 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Never tried but I'm betting via CineCanvas it can be done.

Are you all submitting your logs to Dolby on EACH occurrence of a blown subtitle show? I can't emphasize enough the importance of being diligent on this. I will assist in this matter as it is a serious one and the more data collected the better. We are batting now at about 97.2% success. Though after this week we might eek back up to 98.1% success.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 06-01-2012 08:39 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Happened again tonight -- this time we lost subtitles DURING show -- until tonight, that had not happened -- if they failed, they failed right from the start.

DSS200 logs indicate that a RAID verification had just taken place, and the Barco log shows "Subtitle Error - File Not Found" around that same time.

This is now the 3rd instance this year. All 3 times I see different things in the logs, so there doesn't seem to be a "magic bullet" for this issue.

Is this happening with other servers/projectors? Or is it limited to the Dolby+Barco combination?

BTW -- followup on my CineCanvas observations -- I checked while the show was still on-screen WITHOUT the subtitles and the subtitle status was still showing as "Enabled" so that isn't as helpful as I hoped it would be.

What I'm doing about this:

  • Sending logs to Dolby and Barco
  • Format, Repartition and upgrade Barco Flash Disk, pursuant to Info-T 988
  • Upgrade DSS200 to current software (4.3.5.x)
  • Change Ethernet cable between Barco and DSS200 to Shielded (STP)
  • Wait-n-See...

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 06-02-2012 11:54 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Manny,

If Info-T 988 is the recovery one...be VERY careful. It will wipe your settings (all). Make sure you clone your system (do a full clone including projector specific presets). At that point, you should be able to recover everything. I have had zero problems with it. The current instructions have you make just an ICP clone...which is fine IF (and only if) you do NOT load the base clone. If you instead load the ICP clone YOU made after the update, then you will be fine. I, on the other hand, make a full projector clone, load in the base clone and then reload the projector clone I made...this will get you all of the latest test patterns too (including 4K ones if you ever upgrade).

-Steve

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Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2713
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007

- posted 06-02-2012 01:49 PM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,
I'm a bit lost here.

Could you possibly explain what you mean when you say
quote: Steve Guttag
At that point, you should be able to recover everything. I have had zero problems with it. The current instructions have you make just an ICP clone...which is fine IF (and only if) you do NOT load the base clone. If you instead load the ICP clone YOU made after the update, then you will be fine.
Thanks!

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 06-02-2012 06:28 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dolby reviewed my logs and they believe I may have a network/connection issue.

I'm going to wait until Tuesday -- when we are "dark" -- and then update software (Barco and Dolby) and replace that UTP Ethernet cable with STP.

quote: Manny Knowles
DSS200 logs indicate that a RAID verification had just taken place, and the Barco log shows "Subtitle Error - File Not Found" around that same time.
BTW the file that the projector lost track of was the arial.ttf file.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 06-02-2012 09:30 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Marco,

Not wanting this topic to stray too much...

The current ICP Recovery package from Barco is 1.02. The instructions has one make JUST an ICP clone (see the instructions for more details). However, within the instructions that have the user load a "BASE" file onto the projector after the ICP Recovery program does its thing. The BASE file is what the factory loads on when the projector is new. As such, it will over write all of settings done during installation. If one installs the clone of the ICP files that were made before the update was done, then only your ICP files will be restored and it will work.

Alternately, one can load the BASE files on and then use a projector specific preset clone on. This has the advantage that you get all of what is installed on a current projector.

Note, it is good practice to always have a projector specific preset clone before any serious work (updates included) are done on the projector (or be prepared to reinstall/calibrate everything).

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