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Topic: I have crossed over to the Dark Side...My first D-Cinema install

Victor Liorentas
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 800
From: london ontario canada
Registered: May 2009

posted 01-09-2012 10:19 AM

This begs the questions,are the servers louder than the actual projector and where does a booth less theater keep the servers?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-09-2012 06:47 PM

quote: Brad Miller
Yet the GDC has a 10/100 nic on that "same" motherboard vs gigabit on the Dolby.

They are both gigabit ethernet jacks. Pick a jack and feed in your content transfers in works into either jack at gigabit speed.

quote: Brad Miller
We need to keep the discussion fair. GDC hasn't been around that long whereas the DSS-100s have. (That being said I was never a big fan of the DSS-100. You know that as you were in the same class that I was.)

Yes, in fact the GDC's have actually been around considerably LONGER than the Dolby DSS-100 has been. Ask Dr. Chong at the next sales meeting!!

quote: Brad Miller
Bullshit. Do you keep spare GDC OS hard drives pre-configured which are specific to each server at all 70 of your sites? No of course you don't. You will have to call it into GDC and have them make you one special. Don't try and bullshit me, I've spoken to the tech guys at GDC and that is the procedure. That is the #1 issue I have with the GDC server. As long as the customers are ok playing that gamble, then I can sleep well at night selling them GDC and be perfectly fine with it.

Two choices here. Yes, you can keep a spare drive around with a copy of the image from the original drive on it. Even you SHOULD know that. 2nd choice.... keep a brand new drive on the shelf with the OS loaded as it is suplied from GDC and then once it is installed GDC will remote in and "unlock" that drive so it will work in that server. This has been done before, just not by me.

quote: Brad Miller
I will never believe coincidence (because they claimed they did not alter or do anything to the servers), but whatever, because at the end of the day as long as the servers operate without causing playback issues they can keep their little secret.

Look in the logs and see what/if they did anything. Any change will be in there. Mike B's booth get lots hotter than that, 80+ in the summer some times and he's never had any studdering issues.

As to SSD's, I have yet to have one fail. The 5 laptops I have all have them, some are pretty old too, over 4 years old... The laptop I had at Dolby training when you sat next to me still has it's same SSD. Don't defrag them... that will kill them. They do not need to be defraged. And many thousands of write cycles might kill some of one but then in a server they are doing read cycles 98% of the time anyway. A server may be the best place to use HD's. I have a Dell 2950 in my rack at home that has dual 80 gig SSD's running the OS for over three years in raid 1. Time to get rid of the polyester pants and sneakers when you handle the dam things Brad!!

Humm, Cant hot swap a drive in a Dolby with it going into rebuild. Why would it go into rebuild even matter, kind of inconvenient and defeating of the hot swap feature in the first place isn't it?. The GDC can do both while it's on... hot swap and rebuild and hot swapping a drive doesn't send it into a tizzy.

All I can say is it's a good thing Dolby has brought someone into straighten things out, hopefully the 6 min. boot time can be reduced to just enough time to get a cup of hot chocolate. And yes, you wouldn't believe how many installs I have encountered with out a UPS. There are still unscrouplous dealers out there selling systems by cutting out the important stuff. But no matter what GDC still continues to be the only T.I. approved and accepted server on the market no matter how you look at it. Ask Tony from T.I. next time you talk to him.

Now back to work...

Mark

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 01-09-2012 07:08 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Two choices here. Yes, you can keep a spare drive around with a copy of the image from the original drive on it. Even you SHOULD know that. 2nd choice.... keep a brand new drive on the shelf with the OS loaded as it is suplied from GDC and then once it is installed GDC will remote in and "unlock" that drive so it will work in that server. This has been done before, just not by me.

To be fair, Brad was specifically responding to the claim that "hard drive failures are no biggie. It can literally be up and running in 10 minutes" which you've essentially now said that this claim was valid while explaining because you mean "hard drive failures are no biggie when you have an identical brand new spare sitting around."

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-09-2012 07:10 PM

Why is boot time even an issue? In a commercial theatre, you want the thing to be running 24x7. In a special-venue situation with occasional screenings where the server might be powered down, I would think that the operator would always arrive 30-60 minutes before the screening, anyway (actually, earlier for a D-cinema show, which would require loading the movie and keys into the server).

The idea that any server of any type would have non-redundant storage for anything other than temp files is pretty laughable. Disks fail and there is no reason for this to result in a dark screen. Even with the recent price increases due to the flooding in Thailand, storage has never been cheaper. To cheap out on a $200 disk that is part of a $40-60k system seems crazy.

(I have not seen the GDC server. I have seen the current Dolby server and, the lack of useful documentation notwithstanding, believe it to be a quality product.)

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-09-2012 08:36 PM

quote: Victor Liorentas
are the servers louder than the actual projector

In our booth, no. The server isn't much louder than a noisy desktop computer. The projector is probably 10x as loud, at least.

(GDC server, NEC projector)

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James Wallor
Film Handler

Posts: 26
From: Houghton, MI, United States
Registered: Mar 2011

posted 01-09-2012 08:43 PM

quote: Brad Miller
There is a small hole by the USB ports on the front you can put a paper clip or a ballpoint pen into. Or you could just pull the power cords.

I've been using a Dolby server for nearly two years now and I did not know about this. We always just killed the power after each night.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 01-09-2012 09:05 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
They are both gigabit ethernet jacks. Pick a jack and feed in your content transfers in works into either jack at gigabit speed.

No Mark, eth0 on at least the current GDC model is a 10/100 port. However even on the eth1 port (which is actually gigabit), content transfers are noticeably slower than when using a Dolby server or a Doremi DCP-2K4. Sorry buddy, FACT.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Yes, in fact the GDC's have actually been around considerably LONGER than the Dolby DSS-100 has been.

I will take your word on GDC making cinema servers longer than Dolby. The reason I believed otherwise was because a GDC tech told me last summer that their servers were only introduced into the field about 3 years ago and agreed it would be coming time pretty soon to start seeing lots of OS drive failures since they were non-redundant, and I had never heard of them until the last few years. But of course I'm sure you are right. You are right about everything. [Roll Eyes]

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Two choices here. Yes, you can keep a spare drive around with a copy of the image from the original drive on it. Even you SHOULD know that. 2nd choice.... keep a brand new drive on the shelf with the OS loaded as it is suplied from GDC and then once it is installed GDC will remote in and "unlock" that drive so it will work in that server. This has been done before, just not by me.

Again, GDC told me of the "procedure" for an OS drive and we laughed at it. To provide a counter-argument, with a Dolby you can pop a cd in and 15 minutes later without ANY effort the entire OS is reinstalled. GDC can't even begin to touch that one. Regardless, as a result of GDC's design, I have a firm policy that no GDC server will leave our shop before we have made (and tested) an image of the drive and mounted it in an empty space inside the server. This is because we don't want our customers to get screwed when that OS drive fails. Perhaps you should consider doing that for your customers instead of leaving it to them to scramble and lose shows.

$1 says Mike's GDC that you installed for him has no backup drive ready to go. With him being a single-screen, that would kill his business, as if the drive failed Friday evening, his likely best chance of re-opening his theater would be Tuesday. (Yes I got that timeline from a GDC tech.) It is IMPERATIVE that dealers put their customer's best interest ahead of their own. Dealers that don't do that IMHO don't deserve to be in business.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Look in the logs and see what/if they did anything. Any change will be in there. Mike B's booth get lots hotter than that, 80+ in the summer some times and he's never had any studdering issues.

You act as if I really care. If the thing works, I really don't care to waste my time looking through logs. And I agree there are lots and lots of booths hotter than that one. Still, the fact there are lots of booths hotter than that one is why I said the explanation for the failure was a load of [bs]

I'm glad you agree.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
As to SSD's, I have yet to have one fail.

Well you go girl! Lucky you. Most people aren't so lucky.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Humm, Cant hot swap a drive in a Dolby with it going into rebuild. Why would it go into rebuild even matter, kind of inconvenient and defeating of the hot swap feature in the first place isn't it?

Well, since you don't understand the purpose of hot swapping and raids, it is because when a drive fails, being able to hot swap a new drive in place of a dead one substantially decreases the chances that the other drives will die before the raid rebuild occurs. This is because powering on/off the drives is what does the most damage, so the concept is to keep them running!

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The GDC can do both while it's on... hot swap and rebuild and hot swapping a drive doesn't send it into a tizzy.

Seriously, how much is GDC paying you to constantly dish out "features" that are essentially useless? Seriously you are turning into a troll and I'm not the only one tired of it.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
All I can say is it's a good thing Dolby has brought someone into straighten things out, hopefully the 6 min. boot time can be reduced to just enough time to get a cup of hot chocolate.

Hey Troll! Who gives a crap??? It doesn't matter if the boot time is 10 seconds or 10 minutes!!! Stop grasping for straws here.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
But no matter what GDC still continues to be the only T.I. approved and accepted server on the market no matter how you look at it.

Given the constant sales pitches you post here about GDC, I honestly don't believe you for a minute. But then again, it doesn't matter! If using any other server was a problem, the studios wouldn't be permitting it. As long as the studios are happy, I couldn't care less if TI "approves" of a server or not.

One final warning, stop trolling.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 01-09-2012 09:11 PM

Mark, where are you (and Steve) getting the 6 minute boot time from? During my peek at the drives today I powered down and when I powered back up the ENTIRE boot sequence was done and I could play my trailers in about 3 minutes.....maybe since I don't have a crapload of content loaded that speeds up the boot time...maybe...or perhaps the newest version of software boots faster..all part of my learning curve in any event.

Scott, as Brad has posted here on other threads, powering down the server daily is the worst thing you can do to the drives. They prefer to stay spinning rather than be subjected to the on/off cycles.

This install qualifies as a special venue in the sense that it will not be grinding 5 shows a day, 7 days a week. But the schedule has the projector working pretty hard 3 days a week. [Smile]

Victor, I cannot vouch for other venues with actual observations, but I'm willing to bet they have the servers all in one central location (an IT closet perhaps?) so the noise would be confined to that location.

I was sort-of involved with a DSS-200 installation in a private screening room, and I don't recall the fans being so noisy. I do know they move a LOT of air...either Dolby changed the fan specs or my server is running the fans faster than normal. (It really screams when shutting down or starting up, fan-wise.) I would imagine the fans are sped up as the temperature rises and slow down as it drops.

The class today was impressed with the image quality. [Smile]

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 01-09-2012 09:18 PM

Tony, yes the newer firmware loads faster. Still though, shame on you for not waiting until the last 60 seconds before a show starts to turn the server on. Mark clearly did not train you well.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 01-09-2012 09:42 PM

I hang my head in shame. [eyes]

Hey, when do I get my own smiley like some of our other illustrious members? Since I have joined the Dark Side I think the time is right. [thumbsup]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 01-09-2012 09:49 PM

quote:
This is because powering on/off the drives is what does the most damage, so the concept is to keep them running!

I cannot stress this enough. While there is no magic technique to keep a hard drive running for infinity, in my experience the ones that have failed have always been in computers that I powered off and back on between uses. The more you cycle the power, the much more likely the drive will fail sooner rather than later. The ones that stay on 24/7 last much, much longer. I don't even let the drives idle when not in use.

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David Favel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 764
From: Ashburton, New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 01-10-2012 12:07 AM

Brad, I read in a previous discussion that you were going to publish running costs. Have you done this, and have I missed it?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 01-10-2012 12:29 AM

David,

To be super accurate about it, we have to know various specific information about your situation. For example, everything from your screen size to type of screen, port window, electricity costs, your bulb pricing, etc must be taken into account.

If you just want the quick answer in projector comparisons though without any sort of energy management solution like we offer with the Film-Tech DCS, just comparing projector to projector I can offer the following:

NOTE - this is for series 2 only:
Barco wins in virtually every scenario.
Christie will win in a couple of small situations, but only barely.
NEC never wins against Barco or Christie.
Sony is unbelievably expensive to operate!

With series 1 it was a different story and Christie almost always won the war.

The problem is every sales guy will tell you their projector is the most efficient and has the lowest operating costs. That's why I always tell everyone to never trust a salesman. I then follow it with "don't even trust me" and have them do their own research on the claims we make on our system. We have nothing to hide, as our numbers stand on their own.

Fact of the matter is the DCS has THE absolute lowest cost of operation out there, even if you want it with an NEC that wouldn't normally win in a typical system. This is because of the way the DCS handles energy management and operational efficiency. Many people are only interested in the price of the system though, not what it will cost them. (There is a BIG difference in price vs. cost!) The ones that do the actual math however, get it and they reap the benefits.

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Bob Bregazzi
Film Handler

Posts: 17
From: Hampshie, England
Registered: Jan 2010

posted 01-10-2012 02:51 AM

brad, are you yourself not a salesman?, everyone will say that their system is best, be it right or wrong.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 01-10-2012 02:58 AM

Apparently you missed this.

quote: Brad Miller
That's why I always tell everyone to never trust a salesman. I then follow it with "don't even trust me" and have them do their own research on the claims we make on our system. We have nothing to hide, as our numbers stand on their own.

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