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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Paranormal Activity blowing out Center Speakers (Page 4)

 
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Author Topic: Paranormal Activity blowing out Center Speakers
Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 01-09-2014 03:07 PM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone use a polyfuse to protect loudspeaker components?

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David Buckley
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 525
From: Oxford, N. Canterbury, New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted 01-09-2014 07:29 PM      Profile for David Buckley   Author's Homepage   Email David Buckley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are two ways to damage a loudspeaker driver.

The first is through thermal overload. This is as simple as it sounds; pump too much power into the speaker, it gets too hot, and the overheating causes failure. This is fairly easy to protect against, and for decades HF drivers have had light bulbs in series with them so as the power goes up the bulb acts as a crude limiter. It does this because as the filament of the lamp heats up its resistance increases, and thus reduces the power being fed to the driver. Push hard enough the lamp may even blow.

Thermal effects take time, as there is always more or less thermal inertia, so a short period of overload is not usually disastrous, but a moderate overload for a long time can be a killer.

The second damage mechanism is excessive displacement. Push the mechanics of the speaker too hard, and the suspension mechanisms cannot return the drive components back to their resting position, and the driver is knacked. This damage occurs instantly, push too hard once and its all over. It all happens far too fast for a simple thermal limiter, and it can happen without apparent excess power. Putting too low a frequency into a driver is a good way to damage it mechanically.

In terms of limiting generally; modern audio is now processed by DSPs, which do their magic by means of software, and software is free. Thus the cost to put limiting into a DSP crossover is zero, so any decent DSP crossover should have limiting on board. Of course, to be useful, it needs to be set up correctly, and setting up a limiter correctly is far harder than most people think.

This is why active speakers with onboard amplifier, DSP including crossover and protection from quality manufacturers is such a sensible idea. The safe operating envelope of the drivers is determined with destructive testing during R&D, and that knowledge is embedded into the onboard DSP, making such speaker almost indestructible no matter what you do to it. It also is perfectly set up out of the box.

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Francois Bouzigues
Film Handler

Posts: 19
From: Barcelona / Spain
Registered: Dec 2013


 - posted 01-10-2014 03:05 AM      Profile for Francois Bouzigues   Email Francois Bouzigues   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: David Buckley
Putting too low a frequency into a driver is a good way to damage it mechanically.
That would explain why it is all the time the centre high frequencies speaker that goes boom. I guess it will be all the more sensitive to low frequencies.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-10-2014 06:46 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: David Buckley
what is wrong is your assumption of programme material.
I thought I covered that:

quote: Steve Guttag
enough presumptions to disqualify it from reality because when we set the 105dB reference, it was based on a speaker with a response from 60Hz to about 10KHz flat and then decreasing to 40Hz and 16KHz, respectively. So 2/3rds of the energy is already allotted to the LF section
As to the power needed for a given SPL in the passband...well that is factored into the response of the driver/horn system.

quote: Francois Bouzigues
Pink noise at 7, 83dB, eveything is fine. Then you play this movie a 4.5 and the speaker (the same that last 10 years without issue) dies in a second at timecode 58something... I don't think it is the fault of the tech, or the exhibitor...

The sound engineer of the movie is to blame.

It is impossible for the sound engineer of the movie to be to blame. He can't record above 0dbFS...a properly designed system can play 0dBFS material. I guess you may argue that one can under-design a system since you can get away with it for a long period of time. But it is still an under-designed system.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
But why can't professional cinema speakers not be built with limiters for each and every band, even when using passive crossovers?
Why not just design the system right to begin with? If your system can handle the power (amps and speakers)...you won't have a problem with this or any other sound track. It just isn't that hard to measure the room (length/width) and then select equipment that can handle that much space. Normally, the only shocker is how much subwoofer one really needs.

While limiters (and compressors) make sense in live situations...for cinema...the sound is VERY controlled...well defined...you know what maximum is. About the only way one can damage equipment that is big enough to begin with is to intentionally turn the fader up past reference.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 01-10-2014 08:29 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
It just isn't that hard to measure the room (length/width) and then select equipment that can handle that much space. Normally, the only shocker is how much subwoofer one really needs.
Theater chain executive who writes the check to buy the sound system, "do we really need that many subs and amplifiers for them? Can't we just install half that number? I'm sure it will sound just as good."

This is what I suspect is going on in many theaters, even the premium priced houses. They might crank the sound up some to let audiences hear/feel the bass a little so they know it's there. But it never really impresses. And those who have heard movie theater sound at its best know better.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005


 - posted 01-10-2014 08:51 AM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In my experience, during the digital install, the amps and speakers are retained and the processor is replaced.

Only about 20% of the new processors are then tuned. I mean at all. Is there any surprise that the sound got worse? (despite the higher quality source.) Louis

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Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2713
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 01-10-2014 02:46 PM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was aware that most sound systems were rushed when Digital was installed but not configured at all... So sad:(

Steve,
Thanks, Dolby technical notes say +18dB over reference (103dB for stage channels) but I've always thought it was only a way to keep costs down. Then Mark was correct when he claimed that the subwoofer was louder in D-Cinema than in 35mm.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012


 - posted 01-10-2014 05:59 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Francois Bouzigues
Pink noise at 7, 83dB, eveything is fine. Then you play this movie a 4.5 and the speaker (the same that last 10 years without issue) dies in a second at timecode 58something... I don't think it is the fault of the tech, or the exhibitor...
Maybe you could share what kind of equipment is involved in the failure at your end?

quote: Steve Guttag
Why not just design the system right to begin with? If your system can handle the power (amps and speakers)...you won't have a problem with this or any other sound track. It just isn't that hard to measure the room (length/width) and then select equipment that can handle that much space. Normally, the only shocker is how much subwoofer one really needs.
I totally agree that you should design a system to be capable of playing all content within the specifications given to begin with. But, although we're not talking nuclear power plant here, I'm personally also a fan of multiple fail-safes. Especially in cases were it is rather simple to screw up and rather straight-forward to implement those additional safeguards.

I guess speaker manufacturers themselves won't be to eager to install those, blown out speakers are part of the business for them.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-10-2014 06:27 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are blown speakers really a regular occurrence in movie theatres? I have worked in plenty of places that have under-spec'd sound systems (most of which were running 35mm optical, admittedly) and the only time I have seen speakers blow was when someone did something stupid with a wireless microphone (same guy, twice!).

Questoin: would a properly spec'd sound system have issues with a peaked square wave recorded on the soundtrack?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-11-2014 09:31 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Square waves are an interesting thing...especially when digitized...they don't digitize well.

My suspicion, though I have not tested it, is yes, it would though it would depend on the system. You are essentially presenting a clipped signal to a speaker. The higher the mass (woofers) the harder a time it is going to have moving very fast...coming to a dead stop, then moving in the opposite direction. So I would think woofers would have a harder time, particularly those with very low f3s. They would tend to bottom-out easier.

The other issue with square waves is heat most drivers use the motion of the driver to cool itself...with a square wave, particularly lower frequencies, one is holding the driver in opposite extremes for a large period of time.

So to answer your question, with an educated guess, the higher the frequency of the square wave, the greater the chance that the properly speced speakers/amps will survive...note...again passive crossovers are more likely to send harmful power/frequencies into the higher sections of the speaker system.

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