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This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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Topic: The end of film.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-18-2015 10:52 PM
quote: Randy Stankey
But, still, I say again, every time I hear one of these questions about "when film will be gone" I also hear an undercurrent that tells me those people don't want to do the hard work that it takes to run a theater in the first place.
I wasn't hearing (or reading) that undercurrent at all. I was simply reading someone revisiting an important question for this industry that has been discussed and chewed over for about a decade now. Even though most of the very big change has now already happened, when we finally get to the stage at which color release prints simply can't be made anymore, it will still be an important milestone (especially for me, in the art/rep/archive theater sector, which has a hard core of regular customers who want us and expect us to continue showing classics on film).
In a typical first run/multiplex operation, DCP projection does require fewer hours of a skilled technician's time to operate on a day-to-day basis than 35mm projection did. But as you point out, progressive and intelligent theater business owners have taken advantage of that to direct the freed up human resources into improving the customer experience in other ways, rather than simply pocketing the reduction in their payroll costs. I don't see anyone advocating the latter (work avoidance, in other words) on this forum or thread.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-19-2015 09:34 AM
Okay...before going "postal" and all...lets look at the conversation just a little. You said:
quote: Christopher Lani
I made the conversion to digital about a year ago and I am glad that I did. As I pretty much run the theater myself, the automation of the movie presentation and all other facets of the show (lights, curtains, sound ) have saved me untold journeys up and down the stairs.
Which is perfectly fine on its own. There is nothing wrong with automating a show for cinemas when you are just showing the movie. It will provide better consistency show-to-show for customers too. Rarely are repetitive tasks better done by people over machines (there are cases when it makes sense but there is no magic in timing the lights, drapes, douser...etc. for the day-to-day show).
But then you add this:
quote: Christopher Lani
I know longer wonder if my projector will make it through a show.
Now in your special case, your film projector may have been unreliable. But as an industry statement, film projectors are about 5-6 times more reliable than digital projectors. Setting aside the media for a moment. I don't know a single person that knows both systems that if they had a digital projector (ANY of them) and a film projector (most of them) and both are in good repair and their entire career depending on that show running...would take take the digital projector over the film one. The service record of film projectors is pretty secure...they work almost all of the time and almost across the brands with some clearly being better than others. Furthermore, they are easily made reliable via proper maintenance. Digital projectors can work one day and not the next. Yeah, it might just take a reboot to get it going again but it is like a bad game of Russian Roulette...you never know when it will be feeling at odds. Yes...99+% of the time they work just as advertised but even that .001% chance of "WTF?" will get you. And you are helpless about it and have no way for heading it off.
But lets compare same-same. If you were to maintain your digital projector at the same level as those prior kids abused the film projector, would you not expect the digital projector to fail at a higher rate? Go ahead, don't keep it clean, filters changed...etc...and see how it survives. Do you even wishfully think that your digital projector will be around and reliable in 15 years? I can point to piles and piles of film machines that were happily doing their job 50 years and more.
You were comparing abused equipment with new non-abused equipment.
But here is where I think the train came off the rails and it was likely a misinterpretation.
quote: Christopher Lani
But I really just want to know when film will be done.
This can be read as a simple question and means no harm or it can be read (given the prior comments).."My experience with film sucks. When it will be gone already? It is such an unreliable technology. I'm surprised it made a year, let alone 100" Or words to that effect.
I know I read it as the former statement but one does not get inflection from text so it could have been interpreted as the latter and then taken as an insult to one that has spent a career in the "film" business.
As to Randy's comment on laziness. That, I can assure you, is a jadedness that comes about over time when one looks around and realizes that most people are indeed lazy and seek out laziness over quality. Those that don't really are the exception to the rule. As such, a "jump to conclusion" situation occurs when anyone espouses what they no longer have to do even if the statements have nothing to do with laziness but instead allow even better use of time. There are only 24-hours in the work day so doing one thing inherently takes away from something else and lazy people use that time for sleep ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-19-2015 07:30 PM
quote: Steve Guttag
Conversely, in a digital projector EVERYTHING must be running near perfectly or the whole thing just stops. Heck, you have self-inflected injuries with the whole KDM debacle.
But is it really fair to describe that as an issue of the reliability of the technology per se? I'd say that failing to receive a valid KDM for your show is analogous to the delivery truck not showing up with your print in time for the show. Both happen, occasionally.
The DCI security paranoia is a whole new can of worms, i.e. a layer of technology that is completely unnecessary for showing digital movies, but which we're saddled with anyway.
quote: Steve Guttag
So I bring it back...if you have a "typical" film projector maintained (they kept it clean and lubed) and a DCinema projector also kept cleaned and coolant topped off...the show HAS to run and it is a 1-off event...you can only pick one...which would you bet your career on?
It would depend on which film system and which digital system we're talking about. I'd choose the system I had the greater knowledge of common faults and how to fix or work around them. That means that if I had the choice of a Norelco AA (been using on and off since 1992) vs. a Sony projector (never touched), I'd choose film on the Norelco, but if it was, say, a Century film projector vs. a NEC, I'd take my chances with the NEC, because I've barely touched Centuries, but after a year's baptism by fire on how NECs can jerk their operators around, I'd figure that I was at least in with a fighting chance.
Over the last year or so here, I'd say that we've been roughly even in the number of, shall we say, "unplanned maintenance events" in film and digital. Admittedly, both of our theaters are very unusual (containing both a digital projector and server, plus a two-projector/changeover film installation) compared to most, though.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-19-2015 07:54 PM
quote: Leo Enticknap
But is it really fair to describe that as an issue of the reliability of the technology per se? I'd say that failing to receive a valid KDM for your show is analogous to the delivery truck not showing up with your print in time for the show. Both happen, occasionally.
No! Not a valid comparison. The KDM is like not having the combination to the pad lock on the print cans...the difference is one can cut the locks.
Remember, there can be delivery issues with digital just like with film. However, while one may have a bum print that has some sort of printing defect, a damaged HDD, that could render the show dead in the water.
If you'd take an NEC projector with anybody's server over a Century projector as a greater likelihood of showing the movie from beginning to end without incident, you are kidding yourself. You are confusing "comfort" with reliability. With all of your knowledge of the NEC, if it comes up with a red tail light, there is not a damn thing you can do about it. I'd wager that if you had a few minutes with a Century projector, you'd have it pretty easily figured out (it is a VERY VERY simple machine. The parts are all nice and big and use very simple tools (screw drivers and maybe an allen wrench).
You're claim is not defendable...the reliability of the Century projector is just far and away higher than the likes of NEC or any other digital projector and the repairability...again, much, much higher...even if you had never seen it before.
Now as to doubling up on equipment...we'll yes...in important screening rooms where the shows are all one-offs...we do indeed have that...two projectors, two servers...even the sound has redundancy for much of it. Ever have a Christie CPxxxx give you a "sudden lamp off" during a show? Would you rather race to get the lamp relit or open the douser on the other projector and switch the sound?
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Mike Blakesley
Film God
Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-20-2015 11:36 AM
Heck I remember in the 80s, if you had a car that ran over 100,000 it was almost unbelievable unless you were a mechanic. But now...when we traded in our 2002 Ford Escape (in 2012) it had 230,000 miles on it and our dealership kept it for a loaner vehicle and it's still going strong today with over 245k on it.
quote: Steve Guttag
Now, in the event of a show stopping event...which system do you think you could get going again (even not knowing what caused the show stopper)? Common hardware items and rubber bands go a long way in a film machine to get things to finish up...one can babysit it.
The thing I liked about film was the same thing my grandpa liked about steam engines. He would say, "If something goes wrong, you can see it, hear it or smell it." Unfortunately that doesn't apply with computer-based equipment, usually.
But as for things lasting 50 or 60 years...who would WANT something to last that long these days, given how fast technology improves? Even if I could count on my TV (or digital projector) lasting that long, I'm sure to want a new one with the new fancy features long before that time passes.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-20-2015 11:39 AM
quote: Steve Matz
Without really be knowledgable about the present day Digital Projectors(i.e. Barco,Christie,NEC) I truthfully doubt they would last 30+ years disregarding whatever technical advances come about.
The main reason they won't is software compatibility, not hardware durability. Sooner or later the DCI standard will change such that DCPs can be made that series 1 projectors and/or older servers simply can't show. Even at the moment, you need the latest software updates in them to show more recent subtitled DCPs, and ones with weird frame rates, correctly.
My father has a Dell PC he bought in 1991, and it's still going strong. Over the 24 years it's been in constant use, I've replaced a couple of fans for him, removed and replaced the thermal grease on the processor and replaced the CMOS battery a few times. It runs Windows 3.0 and he still uses it to run an old, DOS-based wordprocessing package that he learnt in the '80s, still does all he needs and that he still likes.
The reason why it's almost unheard of to find a microelectronic device that old still in regular use is Moore's law, not the quality of the hardware. That ranged from very good to very poor, just as it does with every other form of technology.
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Steve Matz
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 672
From: Billings, Montana, USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 07-20-2015 01:23 PM
Well Electronic Technology has certainly taken leaps in the last decade or so. That's what was nice back in the 60's when Color TV's were coming into homes. They were going to last 20 yrs or so and no real advancement except Picture Tube Brightness during that time. Now anything Computer related becomes a Model T after a year or two. My old Compaq Laptop has the same amount of HD Space as the Ram on my present PC.
As far as Automotive engines of today;the only real advancement is in Ignition and Electronic Fuel Injection components for the most part. As far as things like Piston Rings,Aluminum bearings, etc., their still pretty much whats been around since the late 60's and 70's. Other than Blocks and Cylinder heads being of Aluminum alloy, not that much internally is different. As far as saying after 100,000 your engine needed rebuilding; that's a farce. The old Checker Cabs that were in every city in the US commonly got over 200,000+ miles before needing any major maintainence. It still comes down to the Owner and how often he changes oil/filter, Air Cleaner,etc. Modern Engines may have more precision and care in their Assemble because of modern CNC Machines and Robots but were still using Carbon Steel or Cast Nodular Iron Crankshafts, Aluminum Bearings, Cast or Forged aluminum pistons, etc. Some people that use Synthetic oil think they should never have to change their oil for 20,000 miles or more. An engine still wears and micro metallic particles are always going to be present that haven't been trapped in the Filter. that's why it's important to keep clean uncontaminated oil and premium filter in an engine for extended service life ![[beer]](graemlins/beer.gif)
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