|
|
This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
|
|
Author
|
Topic: When to swap a bulb?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
|
posted 02-02-2015 03:32 AM
quote: Leo Enticknap
In the digital world, however, comments such as those above represent what I've heard from everyone I've talked to: don't run your bulbs one minute over warranty; the risk isn't worth it. Is this just because the consequences of one exploding are so much greater (the reflector is a lot more expensive to replace in a digital lamphouse and other components, in closer proximity to the bulb than is typically the case in a film projector lamphouse, are also at risk), or are the xenon bulbs designed for digital projection more prone to spontaneous explosion in use when excessively worn than those designed for film lamphouses?
Besides the fact that the specific, compact and high power design makes them more prone to explosion, there's also some effective scaremongering amongst manufacturers, maintaining their lock-in scheme which isn't anything different from razor blades or ink cartridges. The big difference: Not only are the blades expensive, the razor is mighty expensive too. So, they do have an effective means of forcing you to change the blades, even if they would be good for a few weeks worth of shaves. Continuing to shave with worn blades, might irreparably damage your uber-expensive razor too.
Keep in mind that Christie for example, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Ushio. Christie essentially sells the expensive sockets to burn expensive lamps. Barco, another of those big four DCI projector players, is squarely in bed with OSRAM.
There's no real incentive in the current industry players to offer an exit out of the current cycle of rather short-lived Xenon bulbs. Yes, there's laser now, but considering the costs of such a system, you can burn a whole lot of bulbs before it starts paying itself back. So, none of those players will be interested in offering a bunch of lamps that offer a dramatically increased in life span at roughly the same costs.
The best hope for an improvement here are probably the Chinese, with their copycat Xenon bulbs. If they reach comparable quality levels of current de-facto standard bulbs and will offer the same or better warranty conditions as the big name manufacturers, this market might finally be moving in a direction more favorable for the exhibition industry.
quote: Andrew Thomas
None of this has been a cost question, I just have no idea and we are still on the original bulbs that were installed when we opened 13 months ago.
If you're on VPF, you might want to check your contracts as they usually require you to change those bulbs within the warranty timeframe. Failing to do so, can have severe consequences, especially if a damage does occur.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
|
posted 02-02-2015 06:50 AM
I disagree on the "lock-in" theory as well as the shot life claim.
Almost all of our Barco customers use Ushio and ditch the worthless "free" Osram either after that first lamp or on right on installation. Our customers use Ushio because they are simply the best lamp out there. They hold their light better than the others and get you more light per watt in most categories.
As for lamp life...in film, a 2KW lamp (nice middle of the road lamp size at neither extreme), we had a 2400-watt rated life that was pro-rated for the bulk of film's life. With digital, depending on projector manufacturer, that same size lamp is now a 3200-hour with 100% coverage...hardly a short life lamp. Oddly, if you swing down in the 1400-1600 watt range we went from the 1500-hour "Film" lamps to 3000-hour "digital" lamps.
With film lamps, the arc gaps were larger and tended to just run providing that the number of strikes were kept to a minimum and they were fed good power (low ripple and low in-rush). With digital, the arc gaps are much shorter (which is one way they get them more efficient...the ideal light source is a point-source). One characteristics of these super-short arcs is that once that gap opens up past a certain point...the lamp stability drops like a rock. It isn't unusual for a lamp to be stable one day and flckering bad the next. Combine that with the lack of shutter to "hide" the flicker, digital lamps tend to look "good" for less hours than film lamps...not so much because they are actually performing worse but because their performance isn't being masked, to a degree.
As for going over warranty...get out your spread sheets and do the math (the same with lasers). That is, how many reflectors can you "eat" versus the odds that a lamp will let-loose out of warranty. Which lamp manufacturer you choose will play into this because some are more prone to explode than others. What projector company you use also factors in. If you use Barco, and you do "allow" a percentage of lamp explosions, you can have a spare lamphouse on site already loaded with an aligned lamp in case a lamp does explode. But lets say you adopt a policy of warranty plus 25% or +50%...at what point do you find yourself with too high a potential of damaged equipment versus cost savings on the lamps? You also have to factor in customer satisfaction in there too...you WILL lose customers if your shows don't always run. But you would lose them if the lamp was in warranty too. With Ushio lamps, I think you'll have unacceptable light before you start to worry about explosions. We definitely have a customer that changes lamps on "demonstrated need" and they routinely get 50-100% extra life and they use a mixture of Ushio and Osram. They have yet to have to buy a reflector. They have had lamps that go off mid show though.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
|
posted 02-02-2015 08:39 AM
quote: Steve Guttag
I disagree on the "lock-in" theory as well as the shot life claim.
I never claimed things were so much better for "film", yet again, they didn't exactly improve a whole lot and I'm giving some reasons for this. Also, there isn't a whole lot of choice out there. Its either Ushio, Osram and maybe Philips and if you're adventurous, some Chinese knock off.
I don't really agree on Osram being totally rubbish though, their small and mid-size lamps usually perform well up into the warranty period, although I agree that Ushio seems to be more stable in the whole run. But for some reason, nobody but Ushio really seems to get the high end bulbs right.
quote: Steve Guttag
Combine that with the lack of shutter to "hide" the flicker, digital lamps tend to look "good" for less hours than film lamps...not so much because they are actually performing worse but because their performance isn't being masked, to a degree.
On this I totally agree and it is part of the "problem" of digital. The absence of a shutter in the system increases the visibility of lamp flicker considerably, an unstable lamp will therefore be almost instantly noticed.
quote: Steve Guttag
As for going over warranty...get out your spread sheets and do the math (the same with lasers). That is, how many reflectors can you "eat" versus the odds that a lamp will let-loose out of warranty. Which lamp manufacturer you choose will play into this because some are more prone to explode than others.
I doubt there aren't many in the position to do this kind of math right, since there aren't really many trustworthy numbers to do the math with. It's also not like the manufacturers are so forthcoming with those statistics, as they could hurt their bottom line.
So, whenever you're pushing a policy of going over the warranty hours, you're really just guessing. The uncontained explosion of a Xenon bulb is quite rare nowadays, for any given big name manufacturer. But even with a considerable sample size, like your own customer base, it might be just guesstimating in the wild and not basing your decisions on any statistically profound basis.
I guess, in the end it's just better to be safe than sorry. For all operations running a normal, profitable, healthy business, swapping the bulbs on time and within warranty should therefore be the standard operating procedure.
The situation might change in the future and depending on your mode of operation. If you're running your operation on a bunch of refurbished projectors and you've got a whole bunch of spare parts lying around, you might be able to "afford" a busted lamp house or two. In this mode of operation, you could also save quite a few bucks with running your lamps to till they drop dead or flicker so much, it's more like going to the disco than to a movie theater...
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
|
posted 02-03-2015 06:55 PM
quote: Steve Guttag
In the USA...I haven't seen the lamp manufacturers change much in terms of who can supply what. Now, your brand of lamp may not show up on the "list" of approved lamps but nothing is stopping you from putting in your "favored" lamp and putting its information in. NEC merely reserves space for its "certified" lamps but leaves more than abundance of room to put in "your" lamp. Barco allows for one to make their own "custom" lamp type so again, you can put any lamp in if you know its parameters.
Next time I will try some wrapped up aluminum foil, shouldn't be so difficult to get the parameters right ![[Wink]](wink.gif) .
I highly doubt the lamps in the USA are any different from the lamps in Europe or the rest of the world. The market for those specialty lamps surely isn't large enough to justify producing them in multiple plants around the world.
quote: Steve Guttag
As for Osram...complete junk and quite explosive...had them explode too many times in both digital and film lamps to ever trust them again. They also are the most difficult to owning up to their defective crap. If you like them...use them...but I wouldn't inflict that crap on people myself. That said, thus far, the NEC versions have performed better than the other versions for whatever reason.
Maybe there's a difference after all, the US versions must come with some sort of nitroglycerin doped cathodes ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
I have not experienced an exploded Osram bulb yet. As a result, I also have no experience in how well they treat warranty cases with equipment damage. In my opinion, Osram isn't as consistent as Ushio, but far better than Philips in general. Ushio also happens to be the most expensive option around here. But, what is it for you then? Ushio or Ushio?
quote: Carsten Kurz
The interesting question is: If Martin had experienced an explosion and a 4k bill on his first or second bulb - would he have proceeded with his scheme?
That's the whole problem right there. You're essentially playing a game which is potentially worse than Russian roulette, because you have absolutely no clue what the odds are. A few years down the road, once there will be a somewhat lively aftermarket for DCI gear, the situation might change, but unless you're running a major chain and do have the means to experiment, optimize and balance risk on a larger scale, I wouldn't want to expose my über-expensive gear to such odds.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
|
This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
|
Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM
6.3.1.2
The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion
and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.
|
Home
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic