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Author Topic: Replacing an aging digital projector....options Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-17-2019 06:11 PM                     The CP850/IMS3000 do a decent auto-tune and the timbre sweeps sort of prove it. I'd think, from Dolby's perspective, their IMS3000 IS the new sound processor. It is just part of the server now. Dolby has always preferred if you bought everything from them and the IMS3000 will encourage you to do so. I don't foresee Atmos ever being a significant percentage of theatres. Sure it will get a bunch of PLFs but not the bread and butter theatres. It has the upgradability feature you speak of. QSC, with the CMS5000, if it proves to be a good/reliable server could present a real challenge since it can render on-board, just like the IMS3000. And, tied to QSYS is more flexible in the rest of the B-Chain. GDC is also doing some rendering on board with the SX4000 (albeit too sparse to make it really worth the effort) I would presume that would expand on their future offerings if the market demands it. One thing that standardization could potentially do is allow for non-Dolby products to effectively render the Dolby Atmos track and only lack the Atmos name for presentation or Dolby could license that too! A problem for Barco is that their server only works in Barco projectors, which limits it to 1/4 of the projectors being offered. One also has to buy into their server as being as good as other stand alone servers (a topic for another discussion as they all have their ups and downs). For Dolby, I really think it would be parts availability that drives them to move on the CP750 level processor. I'm thinking that they are thinking that the IMS3000 is going to do that. Don't forget, one can get an IMS3000 and their multi-channel amplifier and effectively wire the sound system in seconds and take up almost no rackspace doing it. They have a pretty tight package for the person that just wants 5.1/7.1 sound. Do those customers really need a box with a knob in a rack somewhere? Who is looking at the box or turning the knob? Can't they do that via the web interface, if need be? Note, Dolby as a USB dongle and app so if you are near the IMS3000, you effectively have a touchy-feely processor too.  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 02-17-2019 08:04 PM                     I totally agree that their IMS3000 with integrated sound processor and their integrated digital amplifier is their primary strategy going forward. But they're still selling a lot of CP750s, including to those not buying into the full Dolby-only ecosystem. If they would drop that machine, they will lose a lot of sales and also up-sale opportunities. Also, they can't expect all PLF concepts to switch to their own IMS, yet those are their primary Atmos customers. So, something like a CP950, which would essentially be the audio-processor part of the IMS3000 in a separate box, would not only replace two ageing platforms, but will continue selling them to the existing potential CP750 customers, while offering them something "new" in the form of an upgrade promise. It would require a new certification process, but I doubt that's the biggest hurdle for Dolby. quote: Steve Guttag I don't foresee Atmos ever being a significant percentage of theatres. Sure it will get a bunch of PLFs but not the bread and butter theatres. It has the upgradability feature you speak of. I think that we should accept that Atmos is just a sound format, just like SRD and not a baseline quality label, although Dolby has tried to maintain it as such for now, it's hard to take it serious when you can buy "Atmos enabled" tablets or headphones. In that regard, a 7.1 configured theater could be equally qualified to playback an Atmos track as one with 64 discrete channels.  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 02-19-2019 12:32 PM                        I must have misread you Steve the CP-850 has two HDMI ports and can even do a poor mans atmos up-render off of them. (EDIT) Never mind. I see your saying the 850 is missing the DTS decoding. Got it.  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 02-19-2019 04:13 PM                     Yes. The missing DTS decoding capability and the lack of analog inputs is making the CP850 a hard sell for those who want to play e.g. Blu-Ray content. Not all Blu-Ray releases do feature Dolby tracks, so you need to fall back to a 2-channel stereo PCM mix in such a case. Having your BR player render the soundtrack is also of no use, since the output will be a bunch of unbalanced analog outputs. And while you could convert those back to AES, it's not really making your solution any cheaper, simpler or better sounding by doing a D/A/D/A conversion... So, the CP850 isn't always the best business case if you're facing an auditorium that plays a lot of alternative content.  |  IP: Logged Ron Curran Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 504 From: Springwood NSW Australia Registered: Feb 2006 posted 02-21-2019 09:10 PM                        Ours is a 2011 Barco DP2K-12C and the concern is light output. The projector came with a 2K xenon which was very bright. First lamp change we went with a 1.2K, with a contrast improvement. A few years later, the 1.2 needed full power for decent light. By that time 1.6 was available so we went to that it proved to be ideal. This last year, 1.6 is still giving 14 lumens on flat images at 1400W but Scope requires full power for 12 lumens. We think we can buy time (maybe 18 months) with a return to 2K lamps next change but what then? A new light engine? A laser projector?  |  IP: Logged Justin Hamaker Film God Posts: 2253 From: Lakeport, CA USA Registered: Jan 2004 posted 02-21-2019 09:41 PM                        quote: Mike Blakesley We run one show most evenings (usually two on Fri, Sat and Sun) so our machine doesn't get as much use as one in a big city theater would. I have 5 NEC NC2000C at my location. Although there have been issues, they have been few and far between. Our oldest projector was installed around the same time as yours and it's in our main auditorium. The other 4 were installed about a year later. So far most of the issues we've had were relatively minor and any delays in fixing them were primarily due to not having a part on the shelf. I would say the frequency of issues has been about the same as what you would expect for diodes in a 5 screen with film projectors. Today I did have a issue where the internal router failed a check at boot up. I had to boot it 3 times before the error went away. I don't have a router on the shelf, so I'm in the process of getting one ordered.  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-22-2019 01:36 AM                     quote: Ron Curran We think we can buy time (maybe 18 months) with a return to 2K lamps next change but what then? A new light engine? A laser projector? New reflector? Has the projector been cleaned regularly - lens end, prism end, integrator end? New porthole glass? New screen? Refurbished engine?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-22-2019 06:50 AM                     I think Marco has hit upon the likely issue. Your optics, despite filters, have collected dirt and/or have degraded. Dirt, particular when blown by air (and the 12C blows air more than most since it is air cooled) will find its way to everything. You'd be amazed at what cleaning the lamp reflectors will do for you. I've found that one can get upwards of 18% of their light back by cleaning the reflectors, cold mirror and the inlet side of the light pipe. But the light path doesn't stop there...you have the other end of the light pipe, condensing lenses, the fold mirror, and notch filter too. There is also the inlet/outlet of the prism as well as the lens itself (in/out).  |  IP: Logged Ron Curran Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 504 From: Springwood NSW Australia Registered: Feb 2006 posted 02-22-2019 04:08 PM                        The whole system is serviced regularly and that includes a thorough clean. We change the filters as indicated (we have a spare set). Port glass is cleaned at least weekly. Our screen is in good shape but we are thinking of renewing it with a slightly larger one. I believe that lamp details on our monitor (lumens and Watts) are taken from the projector, not off the screen. Our picture is fine (now)- I just worry that we are running the lamp on maximum and changes will be necessary.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 02-22-2019 04:58 PM                     Well you definitely need to take brightness measurements off the screen. I also think that 'normal' cleaning procedures are not enough to 'renew' a system of that age. You may need to negotiate that explicitly with a tech to make sure he really takes everything apart in the light path. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 02-22-2019 05:10 PM                     Looks like the factor here is simply: operating hours. How many hours are on that NEC2000 esp if Mike only runs not even 35 hrs a week on the unit. It's like driving a new car bought in the same year as his install only 2600 miles a year. I would safely calculate that the vehicle doesn't even have 35K miles on it, which makes his unit still having tonnage of life left on it until it can't operate anymore. He'll prob be good for another 10 years before it hints of needing replacing. Then, he can pay cash for a new unit, or even up to a self display screen. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-22-2019 06:38 PM                        Good points, I'll have to check the hours on it when I get a chance. There is some validity to the whole notion that the hardest thing a computer-type device does is power up and power down though, so in that sense it has the same amount of "time" on it as any other projector that's been in use for nearly 10 years.  |  IP: Logged Justin Hamaker Film God Posts: 2253 From: Lakeport, CA USA Registered: Jan 2004 posted 02-22-2019 06:56 PM                        I'm curious to hear where you are on total hours. Our projectors range from 30,200 to 25,800. There is about 13 months between the oldest and newest.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-23-2019 01:42 AM                     Some things, like the ICP certificate battery won't go more than 12 years or so.That will be an expensive repair. I suspect that there are other things that will age regardless if powered or not.  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 02-23-2019 04:23 AM                     There is more than just hours to it. Parts availability is also an important issue. Right now, that's not a real problem for the NC2000, but the machine is closer to the end than to the start of its commercial availability cycle. Like I and Steve mentioned earlier, you should expect your digital machines to have an economic life of roughly 10 years. That doesn't mean that you need to throw them out after 10 years if they're still operating as expected, but around that time, you need to be prepared to replace them integrally. Some repairs, for example, might just not be worth it, because they're more expensive than the economic value of the machine. So, in that regards, it's just good business practice to have both a budget and a plan ready to cover such a scenario, especially if you're running a small scale operation that can't afford to lose a screen for a prolonged time.  |  IP: Logged

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