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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1 2 3 4
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Topic: Britain's Prince Harry apologizes after pictured in Nazi uniform despite topic change
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Gunnar Johansson
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 181
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 01-14-2005 07:26 PM
quote:
Leo wrote: Spain, The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Norway all have royal families
and the Swedish king is rising in popularity in recent polls, as opposed to the Government taking a beating over the tsunami thing and the response to it.
I don´t know what the british royal house is doing, or doing wrong, and being a republican (not the american paryt, I dare you to guess what I vote for) I don´t know what the Swedish royal house is doing right. Still, so far, not a single swedish princess with a svastika...
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 01-15-2005 03:36 AM
quote: Michael Schaffer
The place is actually called Oswiecim since it's in Poland. The German name for the city is Auschwitz.
And part of the complex there is now a museum. It has a web site at: www.auschwitz.org.pl, though it seems to be down at the moment. Parts of Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II at nearby Birkenau now form the museum.
Though there can be few things in the hstory of the World less funny than the events which took place under the nazis, there has long been an connection between the nazis and comedy. From Chaplin and 'The Great Diictator', to a British (I think) film, possibly part of a newsreel, of some marching nazis made to perform a sort of strange dance by running the film backwards and forwards to the tune of 'The Lambeth Walk', to a British comedian (I can't remember who it was) who included a nazi among the characters in hs act, to 'The Producers'. These are just a few examples which spring to mind. I've often wondered why.
Years later, Chaplin expressed doubts about the style of 'The Great Dictator', and whether he would he would have made the film if he had known the full horror of what was about to happen, or whether he would have expressed hiis opposition in some other way.
The 'dancing nazis' film was made during the War, as a means of mocking the enemy, something which probably goes back as far as war itself.
If you were to watch a film of Hitler speaking, without knowing anything about him, and without being able to understand German, there is something rather comic about his exagerated style of presentation, yet if you look at a film like 'Triumph des Willens' this was clearly not the reaction of his audience at the time.
The idea of a failed theatrical producer and a neurotic accountant setting out to make lots of money, by producing the World's worst play certainly has possibilities as the theme of a comedy film; but why the need to introduce the nazis, either as the author, or the subject, of the play within a play? I must admit that I feel a bit uneasy about this one. 'The Producers' is a great film, but if I'd been writing it I think I would have found some other subject for the World's worst play. Was this the very aim of the film; to present the audience with somethiing which at first they instinctivly find funny, but they then realise that they are finding funny something which they feel they shouldn't? Is this conflict deliberate?
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 01-15-2005 06:07 AM
quote: Gunnar Johansson
Still, so far, not a single swedish princess with a svastika...
Yes, and the Swedish princesses look a damn sight nicer than any of our royals, too! ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
quote: Will Kutler
And the subsequent look of shock when that large but jolly lady gave her that affectionate bear-hug? THE AUDACITY THAT THE QUEEN SHOULD EVEN BE TOUCHED!
In her defence I don't think it was that - a culture shock pure and simple, would be my guess. Us Brits just don't normally greet each other with bear hugs and she probably just wasn't used to it. There again, look on the bright side - I shudder to think what Prince Philip would have said if he'd got the hug! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Stephen: point taken about not all Nazi humour being unacceptable. In fact, I think humour can be a very effective way of coming to terms with some pretty horrible truths. My grandfather, who served in the Royal Engineers during WWII, was one of the first British soldiers to enter Bergen-Belsen in 1945; and he frequently made jokes about the Nazis in later life. Interestingly, people have recently started joking about a perceived British obsession with Hitler and the Nazis. At an archivists' conference last year, a friend joked that The History Channel, slogan 'All history, all the time', should really be renamed The Hitler Channel, slogan 'All Nazis, all the time'. 'What will their next documentary be called?', she asked, 'Eva Braun's Dog in Colour?... Adolf Hitler - His Secret Role in World War II?'.
But making jokes about the Nazis is one thing: actually dressing up as one, i.e. sending the message that it's actually amusing to represent yourself as one of these people, is less acceptable, IMHO. And doing so is moronic beyond belief when you're a prominent public figure whose lifestyle is funded by taxpayers.
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John Walsh
Film God
Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999
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posted 01-16-2005 04:34 PM
quote: Stephen Furley:
"The idea of a failed theatrical producer [etc, etc...] Is this conflict deliberate?"
I didn't think so.. Generally, Mel Brooks' humor is pretty simple, and usually made as 'extreme' as possible. In "The Producers" he was just looking for a topic that (one would think) would never, ever be accepted.
I guess different contries will tolerate different levels of acceptability depending on what they went through..ie: The Nazis dropped 'buzz-bombs' on England (which apparently had a devastating phycological effect.) So joking about Nazis there is a big no-no. Here, in the US, we never actually had bombs dropped on us, so we were a bit distant, so, some joking is OK. Just MOHO.
Michael, I'd like to ask, how is the subject of Nazis discussed in schools in Germany? My understanding is that there is at least some discussion that it was wrong, etc. (unlike in Japan where there either is none, or a sort of denial of any wrong-doing.) (If it's not a something you care to discuss, please accept my apologies....!)
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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"
Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 01-17-2005 09:37 AM
quote: John Walsh
Michael, I'd like to ask, how is the subject of Nazis discussed in schools in Germany? My understanding is that there is at least some discussion that it was wrong, etc. (unlike in Japan where there either is none, or a sort of denial of any wrong-doing.)
"Some discussion" is a vast understatement. If you grow up in Germany, you get literally bombarded with information about the Nazi time. In school, you spend about three years alone studying only that period, take field trips to historical sites and KZs, and there is also extensive discussion of the periods which preceded and led to the Nazis, WWI and the Weimar Republic. In addition to that, the past is everywhere, on TV and in films, in documentaries, TV series, features, in magazines which run historical stories regularly.
So most people are quite well informed about what happened and have no illusions at all about the nature of this regime.
Your question is interesting because it shows that that kind of open confrontation of the realities of history is very rare.
It is safe to say that no other country (that I heard of) has faced its history as relentlessly as Germany. Not that there wouldn't be plenty of material. England, for instance, has perpetrated enormous crimes against many people over many centuries and still celebrates the memory of the "British Empire" uncritically, holding on to a completely degenerate "Royal Family" as a symbol of the "glorious past". If you think about it, even if "Prince Harry" hadn't shown up in a Nazi uniform, a "colonial and native" themed party as such is in gross bad taste, about the same as a "KZ guard and inmate" party. Only in England, people don't see that because they have never confronted their own past.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 01-17-2005 11:38 AM
quote: Michael Schaffer
England, for instance, has perpetrated enormous crimes against many people over many centuries and still celebrates the memory of the "British Empire" uncritically, holding on to a completely degenerate "Royal Family" as a symbol of the "glorious past".
I don't think that's entirely fair. A new generation of popular historians in particular (e.g. David Starkey, Simon Schama) have produced work examining the internal human rights abuses within British history (e.g. Henry VIII's anti-Catholicism, the aftermath of the Civil War) and of the negative impact of the British Empire abroad in the nineteenth century. As for the royals, I don't think most Brits would want to celebrate them in the way you suggest: in fact opinion polls repeatedly suggest that most people regard them (with the possible exception of The Queen and Prince William, though even he failed to stop his brother from wearing the Rommel costume) more of an embarrassment than anything else. I can't see them being disestablished in the immediate future, but if they continue to try and muscle in on political debates without being elected or having any other qualification to do so, organising 'natives and colonials' parties and all their other faux passes, they'll just become increasingly irrelevant, and will stop being invited to official functions and that sort of thing. I can see this process accelerating when The Queen dies, because she's about the only one of them who really does any work to earn public respect.
As for the Nazi obsession, I guess it might start to fade a bit as people who were alive during that period get fewer and fewer, and therefore the living links start to go. I've always wondered why the Nazis receive so much more attention, publicity and media representation than Stalin's purges, which are believed to have killed at least four times as many people as the Holocaust. Maybe it's the personality of Hitler or just the staggering irrationality of attempting to exterminate a whole race, seemingly for no better reason than personal prejudice.
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