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Author Topic: Advice Needed for Career Decision Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-15-2005 03:26 PM                     Hi Daryl Sure, Calc, Physics,etc are directly related to injection molding. Can't argue with you there...but does a mold designer or mold maker need to be proficient in these areas? No. Let's look at things in perspective. The Design and/or Mechanical Engineer needs to use these disciplines in order to come up with a viable, safe and mechanically reliable design. The Mold Designer then uses the supplied information to design the injection mold. Now, a mold designer/maker needs to be able to look at the supplied info and see if all is ok: are draft angles sufficient, will there be any cracking due to shrinkage on a design feature, or where two design features come together, etc, etc? If there is anything that might prove questionable, it is discussed with the Mechanical/Design Engineers and the product customer. It is up to them to redesign the product. Furthermore, the Mold Designer/Maker is responsible for designing the gating system. No Calc or major Thermodynamics useage is needed for this. The type of material used to build the mold is largly dependent on the type of material being cast, and how many parts the customer hopes to get from the mold. Generally, a good Machinist, Mold Maker or Tool/Die Maker is really good with Trig. And if ya know what you are doing, the Sin, Cosin and Tangent functions are all that you'll need. Now, what is really being stressed and pounded into us but good is how to make conversions between metric and English standard as well as Weight/Mass, Force, etc, etc, etc. As it turns out, most of our modern engineering disasters have been directly related to the failure of Engineers to correctly make these conversions. Cheers K  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-15-2005 08:31 PM                     Really? How many slugs are you? It seems, from your description, that an injection mold designer is more of a technician than an engineer if the design always as to start and be approved by an ME.  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-15-2005 09:05 PM                     No Steve. Mold designing and building requires A LOT of designing and engineering! That is an entire field unto itself. But, the Mold Designer/Builder is building a mold based on an engineered product designed by other engineers. There are many steps to the process, and many disciplines work and communicate together to produce the final product. Here is another case-in-point: Aircraft Design. For many years Aircraft Design Engineers built aircraft to meet structural and weight/balance requirements. But little consideration was given to the needs of being able to access, repair and maintain the various systems. Most Aerospace Engineers had little to no practical wrench-turning experience, so they were, in many regards, clueless. As such, in many cases needed maintenance would be ignored due to the inability of the A & P to be able to access various areas! Nowadays, Aerospace Engineers are supposedly getting input from the maintenance side to aleviate this problem. This is one example of how many different disciplines are required to work to gether to achieve the final product.  |  IP: Logged Aaron Mehocic Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 804 From: New Castle, PA, USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-15-2005 09:31 PM                     quote: Joshua Waaland We only have three tests all semester and one was a take home map that we had to draw. I'm wondering if your instructor is a full time professor or a part time adjunct. What you explained in that quote sound a lot like my grading system. Sometimes you just have to be easy so you know your classes will fill up and you'll work. Empty seats = welfare check  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 10-15-2005 10:49 PM                        Everything always (well you hope it will) looks great on paper, but it's rare that a static design is a well engineered design. I wouldn't use a mold maker that can't look at a half finished product and know that I'm going to have heating issues with the tool. It's my opinion that someone proficient in thermodynamics is more likely to catch such problems before they cost me and my customer even more money. Why kick the problem back and forth when everyone along the way could throw up flags. Sure not every guy in the shop needs to be the best at it, but the top guys should be.  |  IP: Logged Joshua Waaland Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: Cleveland, Ohio Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-17-2005 12:08 PM                     We have a BSME degree and a technology degree here at Akron. The technology degree is more geared towards non-traditional students and is a lot like what Will describes his program to be. When I asked the professors to explain to me the diffrences, they acted like I just asked them to tell me the meaning of life. They bascially all said the technology degree was more hands on and that you couldn't do all that the BSME could. I decided if I was going to do it, I was going all the way. The technology program might have been just fine for me, but I didn't want to hinder myself later if I wanted to do something more. As far as the math goes, I am in Calc 2 right now and we are covering approximate integration. We just finished integration by parts and improper integrals. We are getting ready to cover area of a surface of revolution. I enjoy the math side of it although I am glad our professor lets us bring a cheat sheet of derivatives and integrals to the exams. I am also in Statics which is now dealing with integration a little and the load displaced over a beam. As far as the job goes, I am leaning more towards taking it and working with my professors from semester to semester about my schedule. I figure as long as I am progressing at least one class a semester I will be happy. Shoot I am late for Physics, I will finish this later........  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-17-2005 02:54 PM                     Hi Josh I was in the same boat your in, as far as working full time and attending college. Our Department Chair is also my Student Advisor, and a great human being and educator! Well, he laid it on the line for me: Continue to work full time and take one or two classes per semester, hoping to graduate within ten years and getting a late start on my professional career, or... Attend full time, complete my degree and get on with my life! I chose the latter. How are they teaching Statics in your program, and what text are you using? Already had the class, did not need to use integration at all...for the most part it was all Algebra based. First step in Statics is to draw your Free Body Diagram. Then write your equations, where the sum of all forces = "0". Cheers K  |  IP: Logged Joshua Waaland Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: Cleveland, Ohio Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-17-2005 04:18 PM                     Our textbook is called Principles of Statics by R.C. Hibbeler. The text is straighforward enough, but our professor is young and new and she doesn't quite have the teaching thing down yet. She gives us homework where the problems are entirely different than any of the examples in the book. Her lectures and in-class examples are straight from the book so when you sit down to do the homework you have no idea where to begin. She says that her intentions are to make the homework hard so the tests will be easier. Only problem is she is just making everybody frustrated and confused. It usually takes me several sittings over several days to do 5 problems. There is another class with a different instructor and I have seen their homeworks and quizzes (which are take homes) and they are much easier. Our instructor likes to cover a new topic in lecture and then pop a quiz on what was just covered! Pisses me off....... Anyhow we use integration to determine the distributed loading along a beam and the resultant force at the centroid. You didn't have to cover anything like that? I would agree with you Will about getting the degree finished but unfortuanetly my situation isn't as clear cut. That is why this decision is so hard. I want badly to finish school, but at the same time I'm not getting any younger and we could use the extra income. Staying in school means running up more school loans and scraping by. Our tuition went up 9% percent last year and 14% this year. I spent over $6,000 for this year and I have to pay back every dime. I have no tuition reimbursement. Not to mention I have no guarantee of a job when I get out anyways. If I take this job, I can move on with my life now, gain valuable experience in dealing with people and the sales side of business, start my family, and still take classes (since there will be many plane rides and lonely hotel stays) just in case this doesn't work out. My wife plans to work until she finishes her master's degree (since Progressive is paying for it) so I could always reverse the decision after a year if it doesn't work out. The only draw back that I can see is that my degree will take longer to get. I went back to school because I got tired of waiting for this position to open. When I started this degree I had only planned to go part-time and work full-time anyways so the last three semesters were a blessing I didn't expect. Whatever I do I am sure I will regret not doing the other because that is how my mind works. So I just need to know that I made the best decision possible at the time with the information I had available. Otherwise I will be beating myself up later. example: If I would have finished school the first time I wouldn't be in this position of trying to decide what to do now. Like I said before, not a day goes by that I don't want to kick myself in the ass for screwing off when I was younger and not getting it done. I keep wondering how long I will be paying for that mistake. If any of you are in college for the first time, please take it seriously and stick to it. If not you will regret it later, TRUST ME........I see so many kids here on campus that think it is all a joke and piss away their grades and money. Maybe someone else can learn from my mistake.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-17-2005 08:42 PM                     Hibbler? That was my text in college...it was called "Engineering Mechanics, Statics"...the next one was "Engineering Mechanics, Dynamics." As I recall (it was some time ago) Integration was only really needed for Centroids where those that worked with mulivariable calculus could do double and triple integrals to simplify a problem to just one line...now that is the power of calculus. Calc 2 is a tough course since one needs to memorize many forms of integration...not just the known integration forms/formulas but which way to use integration to achieve an answer. In Calc 1 the solution everything was hand picked to work...one is too busy trying just to figure out what they are doing to be thrown major curve balls. With Calc 2...there is just a ton of different forms of Integration to deal with. And at this stage you are often brought into the reality that not all is known with math and that there are some problems that a usable form of integration is not known nor may never be known. Differentail Equations was my favorite math class. Lots of really cool stuff in there. For me Calculus was like magic. You may be able to get to a solution with alternate means but it would be like driving across country once you know you can fly instead. Calc2 is when you learn there may not be a non-stop flight or even worse, the flight is overbooked. I'm sure your decision is a very difficult one...having a family that depends on you every day helps to make necessary decisions...even if it makes things harder.  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-18-2005 12:41 AM                     Hi Steve and Josh: We also used "Engineering Mechanics: Statics ~ 10th Edition" by Hibbeler. In this text, Calc/Integration is minimized. Used in the last chapters of the book for some frictional forces, center of gravity and centroid, and moments of intertia. We did not get into a lot of Calc in our class. But there is another version of the Hibbeler book that is more Calc/Integration based used for some other Statics classes...that might be the version Josh is using. There is something in industry called KISS (Keep it simple, stupid!), and I was reminded of this today in Calc II class. Finding the volume of a pretty simple geometric object. One could use integration, or make it simple via basic geometry! But there are geometry problems where integration would be required.... Cheers K.  |  IP: Logged Joshua Waaland Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: Cleveland, Ohio Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-18-2005 11:44 AM                     I checked our library at school for other books on Statics to see more examples, but it seems Hibbeler is the most used. All they had were his old versions of the textbook. We just finished chapter six of the book which covered trusses and bridges. What calculus book do you use Will? Ours is the 5th edition by Stewart. We just started chapter 9 last night which covered area of a revolved solid. Wow, was that in depth. Mostly geometry like you said, but also some integration used. Here is the link to his website: Stewart Calculus Steve, I agree calculus is a fun subject. It is very interesting how it works and I enjoy working the problems. Like you said though there are tons of equations that you have to memorize and unlike Calc 1, there isn't some magical formula that you can apply to every function. Our instructor lets us bring the cheat sheets. If not for that, I would be lost.  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 10-18-2005 04:49 PM                        I recall Hibbler's texts. I actually liked them. quote: Joshua Waaland What calculus book do you use Will? Ours is the 5th edition by Stewart. We just started chapter 9 last night which covered area of a revolved solid. Wow, was that in depth. You think the text covers a lot. You should take his classes. If I remember right, the only thing to remember in chapter 9 is Elver's Method.  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-19-2005 02:20 AM                     Link to my University: www.east.asu.edu/ctas/mmet. I am in the Manufacturing Engineering Technology Program (B.S.). And how fortunate am I to have professors like Dr. Russ Biekert as mentors and teachers! http://ctas.east.asu.edu/russb/ Also Dr.Scott Danielson and the rest of this magnificant faculty! I have on hand three calc books. The one for my current class is "Single and Multivariable Calc ~ Third Edition" by Hughes-Hallett. Also have "Technical Calculus and Analytical Geometry" by J.C. Peterson and "Calc Concepts and Contexts ~ Second Edition" by James Stewart. When it comes to math academic texts in general, they usually SUCK! Academic math texts are grossly expensive! And when they publish a new edition, just what does that mean? Well, say in the first edition there will be some errors. They will correct those errors in the new edition, but then add in new errors where that info was correct in the first edition. And then they might rearrange a few chapters and call it the second edition. The perfect scam for publishers and college bookstores to charge $100.00 and up for the book, not including any supplimentary books! And how do college bookstores rip off students? I went to take a class over this past summer break. Turns out that this was the last class to use this edition of the text, as the new edition was comming out this Fall. So, those books were paperback and had been used (bought and sold) for several semesters, many of them looking like they had gone through the ringer! And of course, the college bookstore would not be buying these back. They had the audicity to charge over $100.00 for these books! Anyhow, in Tucson there is a off-campus bookstore specializing in college texts, and they largly cater to the University of AZ. I went there and got the needed text for about $30.00! But getting back to math texts. Generally speaking, as you progress through the ranks of math, the texts generally leave out more and more steps in their example problems, because they assume that you know your algebra, etc. But many a time they leave out so much info, that it can leave you scratching your head just trying to figure out what they did! Furthermore, there are easy ways of explaining things, as well as convoluted ways of explaining things. Most college math texts use the latter. I am unsure about his Calc texts, but Bittinger has published some EXCELLENT algebra texts...one of the few texts that throurghly and clearly explain things in a step by step procedure w/o skipping steps. Cheers K  |  IP: Logged Joshua Waaland Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: Cleveland, Ohio Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-19-2005 06:47 AM                     Since I was such a bad boy the first time I went to college, I had to do some make-up classes. I started out at the lowest math class they had. It was called prep math and we used a book by Bittinger. I recall it as being a very good textbook that was explained well. Luckily the book I have for Calculus takes us through all three calc classes. The faculty is nice in that if they change a textbook, they start at Calc 1 then go to Calc 2 the next semester then on to Calc 3 the next semester. So if you bought a textbook, as long as you take all your calc classes back-to-back, you are set the whole way through. I think the people in Calc 1 are using a new text now so I will have to take Calc 3 next semester or buy a new book if I take it later. This will suck since this book cost $140 used. quote: Generally speaking, as you progress through the ranks of math, the texts generally leave out more and more steps in their example problems, because they assume that you know your algebra, etc. But many a time they leave out so much info, that it can leave you scratching your head just trying to figure out what they did! You couldn't be more right Will. I have noticed that old James Stewart has started skipping a LOT of steps as we go. Most are just algebraic steps, but when you are completely lost, this just adds to the confusion sometimes. Daryl, that is pretty sweet that you have him for a professor. There is a cd that is included with the text with some video of him. He seems pretty nice and obviously from the book he knows a little about calculus. This may be a stupid question, but does he use his own text?  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-19-2005 12:34 PM                     What I really dislike about college is all the time and energy wasted on bullshit general ed classes. It is of my belief that the time would be better spent focusing on core classes within your chosen field. Afeterall, is it not those classes that will be responsible for you earning a paycheck? And worse yet, many of these gen-ed classes are sooo energy intensive and time consuming, that they can easily distract you from your core classes! To an extent, I do see the "purpose" of general education classes: they are intended to both "broaden" the mind as well as to "weed-out" underachievers and slackers. And supposedly the more you progress through your degree, the less focused you become on gen-ed and the more focused you become on your major. But lets look at "The Kutler Perspective". In my degree field, I need I need well over 10 gen-ed classes! Lets look at English 101 and 102, for example. The bottom line is that these classes are supposed to teach students how to organize thoughts on paper, as well as how to use correct grammar skills. Gee whiz...I would never have thought that 12 years of primary education was supposed to accomplish that? Oh wait....I forgot! The American public school system is an overglorified farce! I guess that is why some of the trade-schools and colleges are now popular: they focus the student on the core cirriculum rather than useless gen-ed crap! Cheers K  |  IP: Logged

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