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Topic: I got a jury summons today! Ugh....
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 08-22-2006 01:41 AM
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Not having to vote is one of the greatest things about the freedom this country enjoys. I have only voted one time in my entire life... because I thought for once there might be a few good candidates worth taking the time to vote for... normally they are all worthless heaps of corrupt flesh.
I think there is a valid argument for making voting compulsory, but including a 'Re-open nominations' option on the ballot (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that this is the case in Australia). If that wins, then none of the first round of candidates are eligible to stand in the re-election. This has two potential advantages: firstly, it allows voters to actually make a statement that they actively don't want any of the candidates standing, as distinct from just not being motivated to make any statement at all; and secondly it makes it more difficult for small, highly motivated interest groups to hijack an election over one specific issue.
Example, recently told to me by a friend: in the last Dutch parliamentary election, a number of candidates secured the backing of a pressure group which wanted to outlaw enthanasia (which is currently legal in The Netherlands under certain circumstances). They targeted some marginal constituencies intensively, but in ways which didn't attract much media attention: putting leaflets through doors, talking to people in shops, that sort of thing. Against the background of a low turnout, all these candidates were elected. Because of that low turnout, a relatively minor issue which directly affected only a very small proportion of the electorate determined the outcome of the election. If voting had been compulsory, everyone who stayed at home and who hadn't been targeted by this pressure group would presumably have thought - if only a very little - about the major issues (education, law and order, transport, foreign policy etc.), voted accordingly and not let the agenda of a small interest group have a disproportionate effect. And I really don't think that asking someone to turn up at the polling booth (or if you want to here, you can vote by post) every few years is an unreasonable price to pay for a functioning democracy, just as giving a few days once or twice in your life is surely an acceptable price for a reasonably reliable criminal justice system.
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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"
Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 08-22-2006 05:49 AM
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
You know nothing about what I know or don't know or why I choose what I do.
It is very obvious that you only have a very superficial understanding of recent history. Your nonsensical remarks about the general attitude in the US towards going to war in WWII show that glaringly obvious. You have a very clichéed and limited view of history. You just know about enough in order to make you feel good about the achievements of other people who came before you and made big sacrifices - including their lives - in a historical situation of crisis and to whom you can attach yourself by waving a little flag while you yourself are not even prepared to make the smallest sacrifices required of citizens living in a democracy - the very thing these people fought and died for. What a great "patriot" and democratic citizen you are!
You are just a very small man hiding behind very big things that he doesn't even understand - but hey, all it takes is the small paper flag, right?
In Germany, the vast majority of people understand what happened and why, thanks to a very thorough and very open confrontation with the events of the past which includes 3 years alone in school about the first half of the 20th century, museums and memorials everywhere, a vast amount of literature and documentaries which are shown on TV literally all the time, a very open discussion of every aspect of these events in the media and other public fora. Consequently, it is seen as almost a catastrophy that less than 80% of the population turned out for the last election. Because people do understand how important it is.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
You claim to know more about U.S. history than I do but I wonder who's view of U.S. history you know.
Hahaha. More of your xenophobic BS. You probably imagine that these things aren't openly addressed in other countries. Like I said above, history is addressed in places like Germany with an impartiality and openness you can't even begin to imagine in your limited world view. In addition to that, I know many more views because unlike you who doesn't speak any foreign languages, I speak English, French, Italian, and, obviously, German, so I have access to a vast spectrum of resources that is entirely closed to you. However, that doesn't excuse that you don't even know what attitude the US public and political leaders had to joining WWII. There is plenty of information easily available about that right here, not surprisingly.
quote: Bill Enos
Michael, Leo, it's truly embarrassing that you know more about
U.S. history than the vast majority native born Americans. Our school systems have pushed history aside for things that on the surface seem more relevant. What little that gets in is frequently rearranged for political correctness.
Well, for the reasons I outlined above, in Germany, it is seen as extremely important that people are as informed as possible about history in general, and the history of the great conflicts of the 20th century in particular which have directly shaped the world we all grew up in, and which continues to influence our lives every day.
That doesn't mean that everyone there is a real history expert, of course. It also depends on how much you are personally interested. But the density of information is enough so that the vast majority of people have a fairly good and not at all sugarcoated view of these events. In fact, the confrontation with the unpleasant realities of recent history is so relentless that you actually sometimes need to get an outside view to get a more complete picture, such as from American or British sources.
Still, that is a good thing because it makes sure that people understand what happenend and why, and what mechanisms made these events possible, and how important it is for everyone to play at least their own small parts in making sure it doesn't happen again.
It does appear to me that a lot of people here in the US don't really care about their own history, why they are here, what makes the US the country it is today, what sacrifices had to be made to achieve the status they are comfortably living in, etc. That is not a good thing because a country is work in progress. There are always things which need to be improved and changed, but if the citizens don't have the faintest idea of what is going on and why - and that can only be put in the right perspective by learning from history - how can that happen? It means that the decision making power goes into the hands of just a few people, and that is, as we can learn from history, extremely unhealthy and dangerous.
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Chris Hipp
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1462
From: Mesquite, Tx (east of Dallas)
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 08-24-2006 10:29 PM
quote:
quote: Bill EnosMichael, Leo, it's truly embarrassing that you know more about
U.S. history than the vast majority native born Americans. Our school systems have pushed history aside for things that on the surface seem more relevant. What little that gets in is frequently rearranged for political correctness
Yes, this is true. Take WWII for example, the only thing they focus on in public schools about WWII is the Final Solution. They won't even call it the Final Solution, though. I know the word holocaust makes it sound worse. I am not trying to justify what happened, but you shouldn't be biased when teaching history. The only thing they really teach about it is "Hitler hated the Jews." Ok, why did he hate the Jews? Why did the German people allow this to happen? They don't address these questions.
The same thing with the civil war. "The north fought the south to free the slaves." No they didn't, they fought the south to preserve the union because they did not want to have to pay tariffs on raw goods shipped from the south. Slavery was just a side issue. Lincoln himself said that if keeping slavery legal would end the war that he would. They don't tell anyone that stuff, they just say "Lincoln believed it was wrong to have slaves." Of course he didn't think that at all. I wasn't taught until college history that the majority of slaves were bought from African royalty. I was also never taught that more slaves went to the Caribbean islands than America. The reason for that was because they were taken care of in America and treated relatively decent as opposed to just letting them rot and die because they could buy more.
My point is, Bill is right. If I ever end up with kids I will think before letting them go to public schools. This is a problem with democracy, it allows your dumbest people to make the decisions. In other words, stupid people elect stupid politicians to decide what is taught in our schools rather than, I don't know, scientists or historians; ya know, smart people.
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